# Lucas fined for lack of credits at starting of Star Wars -- Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 12, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-fined-for-lack-of-credits-at-starting-of-star-wars-why/698329 "2014-09-12T18:57:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-fined-for-lack-of-credits-at-starting-of-star-wars-why/698329/1 "2014-09-12T18:57:17Z")
This has become an element of movielore – Lucas decided to open his film **Star Wars** in 1977 with no credits (only the title). It was a bold move, and I thoroughly approve. But it apparently won him the ire of the Director’s Guild, who fined him an outrageous sum. He quit. But why? There are plenty of films that did the same thing before Star Wars. I just watched Michael Todd’s **Around the World in 80 Days** , and it has no credits at all – not even the title – until the end of the movie. (In fact, the title is the very last thing). Orson Welles’ **The Magnificent Ambersons** has only the title card at the beginning. And the credits are not only at the end, they’re _spoken_ (by Orson Welles -0- how classy is that?). For that matter, Francois Truffaut’s **Fahrenheit 451** has _all_ spoken credits – not even a title card. (although they’re at the beginning). The list goes on – Stanley Kubrick’s **2001: A Space Odyssey** , Robert Wise’s **West Side Story** , Coppola’s **The Godfather** and Welles’ **Citizen Kane** itself all had only the title at the beginning. It’s becoming a standard in film, especially with summer blockbusters, as Wikipedia notes, since 1989 or so. So what did Lucas do that was so wrong? It wasn’t even original, as these examples show. And did he catch any flak for the subsequent Star Wars films? (And don’t say that there was no problem because he didn’t direct – each of those films had a director.) ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-fined-for-lack-of-credits-at-starting-of-star-wars-why/698329/2 "2014-09-12T19:31:06Z")
It’s always been possible to get around The Book… by paying a fine to DGA or SAG or whomever. It’s really more of a fee these days, but it was intended to make variations that might diminish director or actor credit something to be avoided. (But still possible for artistic reasons.) The most famous example might be “Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn,” which was only allowed to remain after a [del]fine[/del] fee was paid. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-fined-for-lack-of-credits-at-starting-of-star-wars-why/698329/3 "2014-09-12T21:17:30Z")
That’s not quite to the point. You wouldn’t expect people to be able to say “damn” after \*\*Gone With the Wind \*\* did it (at least for many years), but when other directors have put out a lot of other movies without giving credits up front, it seems weird that they singled Lucas out to the point where the fine made the news, and Lucas quit the Guild over it. Especially when you never heard about such restrictions against Truffaut, Welles, Michael Todd/Michael Anderson (who really directed), Stanley Kubrick, or any of the other pre-credit-less directors. So why should Lucas be singled out? Especially AFTER these others had made their films, apparently without demur. Were these “commandments” written down someplace? and, again, why no outcry about the later Star Wars films, which opened the same way? Is the complaint in part because the title “card” in \*\*Star Wars/B] has no legalese associated with it (when the title appears for **2001** , for instance, you see a lot of fine-print gibberish down at the bottom of the screen, giving year and studio)? That still wouldn’t answer the question – **Fahrenheit 451** and **Around the World in 80 Days** had to title card at all, legalese or no. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-fined-for-lack-of-credits-at-starting-of-star-wars-why/698329/4 "2014-09-12T21:28:30Z")
My understanding is that it was **Empire** that he got in trouble for–because as producer, he compelled another director to give up his DGA right for specific credit placement. I don’t think he got in trouble for the first film because of all the other precedents that had occurred (which the OP cites). But from a union advocacy perspective, Irvin Kershner (who I imagine didn’t care one bit) was not getting what he was entitled to and had no say in the deciding of it, and that’s what got the union in an uproar. That’s how I heard it, at least. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-fined-for-lack-of-credits-at-starting-of-star-wars-why/698329/5 "2014-09-12T21:39:58Z")
Wikipedia says it was for both Star Wars and Empire Strikes back, citing imdb. But imdb says it was only due to Empire: > **[Opening credits](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opening_credits)** > > In a motion picture, television program or video game, the opening credits or opening titles are shown at the very beginning and list the most important members of the production. They are now usually shown as text superimposed on a blank screen or static pictures, or sometimes on top of action in the show. There may or may not be accompanying music. When opening credits are built into a separate sequence of their own, the correct term is a title sequence (such as the familiar James Bond and Pi... > **[George Lucas - Biography - IMDb](https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000184/bio/)** > > George Lucas. Writer: Star Wars: Episode IV - A New Hope. George Walton Lucas, Jr. was raised on a walnut ranch in Modesto, California. His father was a stationery store owner and he had three siblings. During his late teen years, he went to Thomas... Roger Ebert says it was the first film: > [@](#): > > It is such a dramatic opening that it’s no wonder Lucas paid a fine and resigned from the Directors Guild rather than obey its demand that he begin with conventional opening credits. > **[Star Wars (Episode IV: A New Hope) movie review (1977) | Roger Ebert](http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/great-movie-star-wars-episode-iv-a-new-hope-1977)** > > To see "Star Wars" again after 20 years is to revisit a place in the mind. George Lucas' space epic has colonized our imaginations, and it is hard to stand This site says so, too, although it doesn’t give its source: [http://www.omgfacts.com/Celebs/George-Lucas-had-to-quit-the-Director-s/56259](http://www.omgfacts.com/Celebs/George-Lucas-had-to-quit-the-Director-s/56259) ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-fined-for-lack-of-credits-at-starting-of-star-wars-why/698329/6 "2014-09-12T21:47:06Z")
Wookieepedia doesn’t say anything about it bein g because he cheated a director out of his due, either: > [@](#): > > Lucas was fined by the Directors Guild of America for refusing to have a standard title sequence in his Star Wars films. After paying the fine, he quit the guild. This made it hard for him to find a director for some of his later projects. According to some, he wanted his friend Spielberg to direct some of the later Star Wars movies, but as a member of the guild Spielberg may have been unable to do so. Spielberg has repeatedly stated that Lucas consciously did not let him direct any Star Wars films, despite the fact that Spielberg wanted to. Other directors Lucas pursued to aid him were David Lynch and David Cronenberg, both of whom declined. > **[George Lucas](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/George_Lucas)** > > George Walton Lucas, Jr. (born May 14, 1944) is an American filmmaker. The creator of Star Wars, he executive-produced its first six films. Close friends with fellow filmmakers Steven Spielberg and Francis Ford Coppola, George Lucas worked on the... ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-fined-for-lack-of-credits-at-starting-of-star-wars-why/698329/7 "2014-09-12T21:52:18Z")
This is typical of the story told: > [@](#): > > - The Director’s Guild of America (DGA) didn’t like the fact that there were > no specific credits at the beginning of the film. They ``ordered’’ Lucas > to recut the film and put some credits at the beginning. Lucas refused, > claiming that this would destroy the opening of the film. The DGA fined > Lucas, who paid up, and promptly quit the DGA. > **[154 Star Wars (1977)](https://stason.org/TULARC/movies/trivia3/154-Star-Wars-1977.html)** > > \- 'George Lucas' (qv) consulted with world reknowned ... In fact, I’ve never heard the story as **MovieMogul** yells it. Nothing about them claiming that it was from another director losing credit from the second film – always Director’s Guild insistence that the original film be changed. Despite many prior cases of the same practice without a squawk. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-fined-for-lack-of-credits-at-starting-of-star-wars-why/698329/8 "2014-09-12T22:06:00Z")
It’s my understanding that credit and title sequences must follow a very specific set of rules - dozens if not hundreds of pages of specs - and that any variation, such as postponing credits until the end of the film, or moving a major star’s credit to the end (to preserve a surprise, for example) can be done… but for a fine/fee. The Star Wars situation always struck me as Lucas objecting to the “artistic” control DGA imposes by these rules, with him always knowing it could only be done by paying for the privilege, and him refusing on principle. That is, he didn’t do it in ignorance and then get singled out by DGA. ---
**Author:** ![JKilez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e5b9ba/32.png) [@JKilez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKilez)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-fined-for-lack-of-credits-at-starting-of-star-wars-why/698329/9 "2014-09-12T22:55:16Z")
The story sounds apocryphal seeing that (DGA member) Coppola released both _The Godfather_ and _The Godfather Part II_ with the same credit sequencing as Star Wars, and there is no record of him being fined. It sounds like Lucas creating a story about “the man trying to keep him down” forcing him to go outside the system to keep his creative vision (or something like that). The Force is not the only mythos in Star Wars. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-fined-for-lack-of-credits-at-starting-of-star-wars-why/698329/10 "2014-09-12T23:16:47Z")
I’m still thinking about how the world was deprived of a Star Wars film directed by David Lynch or David Cronenberg. That would have been something to see! ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-fined-for-lack-of-credits-at-starting-of-star-wars-why/698329/11 "2014-09-12T23:57:08Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > I’m still thinking about how the world was deprived of a Star Wars film directed by David Lynch or David Cronenberg. That would have been something to see! Wasn’t _Dune_ enough for you? ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-fined-for-lack-of-credits-at-starting-of-star-wars-why/698329/12 "2014-09-13T00:15:12Z")
Citing older films doesn’t mean anything, if the conventions weren’t in place then. There are certain things stars and directors are entitled to, and it’s in their union contracts, as well as individual contracts, but often they are bargained away for everything from an extra $100,000 on top of salary, to a four-day work week-- Irene Dunne had a contract that specified she always had top billing, but when the studio she was working for (she was unusual in being a semi-free agent in the studio days, but did sign multi-picture deals) wanted to promote Cary Grant, her co-star, they bought out that clause for, IIRC, $100,000, and Grant got top billing, while she took second billing. FWIW, top billing is best, and second billing is next, but if you can’t have either, then last billing is third, because of the “Primacy and recency effect” of memory. We remember the first and last item on a list better than anything in the middle. My point is, a lot of research has gone into the best ways to present credits in order to benefit actors, directors, and writers, and so it goes into union contracts. It’s not something people can mess around with. This may be one of the reasons Lucas wanted unknowns for _Star Wars_. It’s a lot easier to convince people who are just happy to be working to give up the right to have a credit presented in a certain way in exchange for an extra percent of the gross, or some amenity while you are filming in the desert. ETA: Fahrenheit 451 was not a Hollywood film. I doubt the Directors’ Guild had any input or control whatsoever for it. Ditto for lots of American films that are made independently. Spike Lee’s first film has unusual credits as well. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-fined-for-lack-of-credits-at-starting-of-star-wars-why/698329/13 "2014-09-13T00:16:03Z")
> [@JKilez](#): > > The story sounds apocryphal seeing that (DGA member) Coppola released both _The Godfather_ and _The Godfather Part II_ with the same credit sequencing as Star Wars, and there is no record of him being fined. He may have well just written a check and moved on, since that’s how that part of the game is played. I think it’s a combination of Lucas trying to Change Things and relatively ignorant Star Wars fandom thinking (accepting) that it was some unusual situation, punishment or singling-out. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-fined-for-lack-of-credits-at-starting-of-star-wars-why/698329/14 "2014-09-13T01:29:18Z")
From a 1981 [article](http://partners.nytimes.com/library/film/071381lucas-hollywood.html) in the New York Times, “His resignation from the Directors Guild came because the guild fined him for placing the director’s credit at the end of ‘The Empire Strikes Back,’ even though Irvin Kershner, the director he had chosen for ‘Empire,’ did not object.” ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-fined-for-lack-of-credits-at-starting-of-star-wars-why/698329/15 "2014-09-13T03:35:59Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > From a 1981 [article](http://partners.nytimes.com/library/film/071381lucas-hollywood.html) in the New York Times, “His resignation from the Directors Guild came because the guild fined him for placing the director’s credit at the end of ‘The Empire Strikes Back,’ even though Irvin Kershner, the director he had chosen for ‘Empire,’ did not object.” It wasn’t up to Kershner. The rules exist in part to make sure producers and studios don’t pressure (aka screw) cast and crew out of proper credit. AFAIK, the proper route would have been for Lucasfilm to request a variance, let DGA collect all due info including permission from Kershner, pay the fee/fine and move on. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-fined-for-lack-of-credits-at-starting-of-star-wars-why/698329/16 "2014-09-13T06:32:57Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Wasn’t _Dune_ enough for you? Nope. Dune was a crappy book made into an acquired taste of a movie. If Lynch had had the opportunity to direct a real rip-roaring space opera with actual action and characters that people could actually care about, it might have been awesome enough to make the world a better place to live in. ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-fined-for-lack-of-credits-at-starting-of-star-wars-why/698329/17 "2014-09-13T09:32:55Z")
> [@JKilez](#): > > The story sounds apocryphal seeing that (DGA member) Coppola released both _The Godfather_ and _The Godfather Part II_ with the same credit sequencing as Star Wars, and there is no record of him being fined. \ Maybe Coppola had the remainder of that horse delivered to the DGA Board? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-fined-for-lack-of-credits-at-starting-of-star-wars-why/698329/18 "2014-09-13T11:31:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Citing older films doesn’t mean anything, if the conventions weren’t in place then. Right - but _were_ they? Damned if I know, and no one thus far has enlightened us. Even though the article **Dewey Finn** cites confirms that Lucas quit the Director’;s guild because of their objection to Kershner not getting the credit, that still doesn’t mean that Lucas wasn’t fined over the first Star Wars film, as everyone seems to be saying. As far as I can see, I still don’t know the story of what happened or why.