# Lucas/Tolkien: Haven't I heard this before? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 26, 2002, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-tolkien-havent-i-heard-this-before/120904 "2002-07-26T09:33:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2002, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-tolkien-havent-i-heard-this-before/120904/21 "2002-07-29T06:10:10Z")
> [@](#): > > But in how many of these does the hero live with his uncle, **and** inherit a sword, **and** find out he’s secretly related to the bad guy and/or the princess and/or both… Bilbo is Frodo’s third and fourth cousin, once removed either way, not his uncle. And for that matter, Owen is Luke’s step-uncle. Every fantasy story ever written has at least one heirloom sword. Nothing special about these two. And Frodo isn’t secretly related to anyone… He’s related to Merry and Pippen, but that’s well known, and not much of a plot point. Now, Aragorn and Arwen are related, but distantly enough that it doesn’t matter (first cousins forty-three times removed, if I recall correctly). ---
**Author:** ![Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2002, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-tolkien-havent-i-heard-this-before/120904/22 "2002-07-29T06:20:45Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Chronos** _ > **And Frodo isn’t secretly related to anyone…** You may now take one smackie from petty cash, and apply it swiftly to my forehead. I have no idea where that bit came from. Chalk this one up to my posting while medicated. Damn. [sub]No, really… I’m not normally this much of an idiot.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Fish42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4da419/32.png) [@Fish42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish42)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2002, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-tolkien-havent-i-heard-this-before/120904/23 "2002-07-30T14:57:48Z")
Another pair of (probably meanignless) parallels: -Hero mysteriously attacked by water-dwelling critter (the Watcher in the Water in front of Mordor/that thing in the Death Star’s trash compactor) -Hero and sidekick(s) disguise selves in enemy uniforms (Frodo & Sam wear orc outifts in Mordor/Luke & Han wear stormtrooper uniforms to rescue Princess Leia) Of course, you could come up with an equally large number of blatant non-parallels: SW: Hero discovers he’s the son of the villian LOTR: Hero no relation to villain SW: Hero discovers he’s brother to the princess. LOTR: Hero no realtion to princess LOTR: Mysterious figure who joins quest after meeting in bar turns out to be heir to a kingdom. SW: Mysterious figure who joins quest after meeting in bar turns out to be smuggler with price on head. LOTR: Enemy defeated by destruction of powerful relic. SW: Enemy defeated by hero appealing to villain’s remnants of good. SW: Hero twice confronts villian. LOTR: No face-to-face between hero and villain LOTR: Villain is a disembodied\*, flaming eye. SW: Villian very corporeal. (\*OK, technically, that applies only to the movie version) SW: Villain’s hemchmen who fail in tasks get executed. LOTR: Nazgul survive despite letting Frodo escape to Rivendell. LOTR: Hero leaves fellowship due to act of betrayal by a fellowship member. SW: Hero leaves rebels due to vision from dead jedi mentor. LOTR: Heroes on the run seek refuge in Lothlorien; find it. SW: Heroes on the run seek refuge in Cloud City; are betrayed. Etc, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2002, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-tolkien-havent-i-heard-this-before/120904/24 "2002-07-30T15:18:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Skeezix \* > \*\* > True. It was the _little_ things that kept hitting me over the head. Both characters are originally met in a bar, not really trusted by the rest of the good guys, at first, and both end up with a princess who’s family is dead/leaving this world forever (Yikes, another one) as a bride to be… > Although, upon further reflection, Aragorn and Arwen _did_ tie the knot during the actual story, so that one just gained and lost a point. \ > \*\* I don’t mean to scoff, but it’s easy to find parellels when it comes to “little things” precisely because they _are_ little things. There are tons of “little things” in any lengthy work, and it’s easy to pick, choose, and interpret them any way you like. Many of your examples are also so general as to be essentially meaningless. Two guys meet in a bar? That’s not exactly a smoking gun. The orphaned princess is a stock character found throughout myth, legend, and fantasy. So is the orphaned hero raised by relatives. And stuff like “The good guys prepare for the final battle against the dread enemy. Some of our heroes are indeed deep in enemy territory. The setup finally pays off, and the climactic fight is a real knockdown-dragout, and it’s questionable as to who will win the day.” could apply to any number of war movies, including ones based on historic events. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2002, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-tolkien-havent-i-heard-this-before/120904/25 "2002-07-30T15:23:53Z")
> [@](#): > > But… LOTR doesn’t have mile-long Star Destroyers. Well, not since Numenor sunk… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2002, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-tolkien-havent-i-heard-this-before/120904/26 "2002-07-30T15:23:53Z")
> [@](#): > > But… LOTR doesn’t have mile-long Star Destroyers. Well, not since Numenor sunk… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Threadkiller](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aca169/32.png) [@Threadkiller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Threadkiller)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2002, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-tolkien-havent-i-heard-this-before/120904/27 "2002-07-30T16:41:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Skeezix \* > …Both characters are originally met in a bar… This is a _well_ worn plot device. People meet in bars (taverns, cantinas, or whatever). Now if they had met in a laundromat :)… ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2002, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-tolkien-havent-i-heard-this-before/120904/28 "2002-07-30T17:17:37Z")
On a slight hijack, didn’t Lucas himself say he based Chewbacca loosely on the “wild man” from the _Epic of Gilgamesh_? ---
**Author:** ![taggert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/96bed5/32.png) [@taggert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/taggert)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2002, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-tolkien-havent-i-heard-this-before/120904/29 "2002-07-30T18:29:37Z")
Star Wars has characters who are very different. LOTR, all the characters are really different aspects of human nature. Frodo, Sam and Gollum are SuperEgo, Ego and Id respectively. ---
**Author:** ![Threadkiller](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aca169/32.png) [@Threadkiller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Threadkiller)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2002, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-tolkien-havent-i-heard-this-before/120904/30 "2002-07-30T18:37:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beeblebrox \* > On a slight hijack, didn’t Lucas himself say he based Chewbacca loosely on the “wild man” from the _Epic of Gilgamesh_? From [StarWars.com](http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/chewbacca/bts.html) > [@](#): > > …George Lucas’ inspiration for Chewbacca was his loyal pet Alaskan malamute, Indiana, who would also inspire the name of a globe-trotting archaeologist several years later… Of course there may be other source material. ---
**Author:** ![Doubting\_Robert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e495f1/32.png) [@Doubting\_Robert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doubting_Robert)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2002, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-tolkien-havent-i-heard-this-before/120904/31 "2002-07-30T19:48:13Z")
No, no, no. The first Star Wars movie is based on “The Wizard of Oz.” (Well, maybe not really, but . . …) Luke is Dorothy. (I have read two different articles which said this character was originally female. One was many years ago, in Time Magazine, I think, and the other was an interview with Mark Hamill, IIRC, in a recent magazine (Star Log?).) Luke lives with his aunt and uncle on a farm, just like Dorothy. R2-D2 is Toto. (The names even sound the same, and neither one speaks English.) C-3P0 is the Tin Man. Chewbacca is the Cowardly Lion. Han Solo is the Scarecrow. Obi-Wan Kenobi is the Wizard. Darth Vader is the Wicked Witch of the West. The tie fighters and their pilots are the flying monkeys. The other storm troopers are the witch’s castle guards (the guys with the long tails). The Jawas are the Munchkins. Princess Leia is Glenda the Good. ---
**Author:** ![Doubting\_Robert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e495f1/32.png) [@Doubting\_Robert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doubting_Robert)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2002, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-tolkien-havent-i-heard-this-before/120904/32 "2002-07-30T19:52:07Z")
And, yes, I know Mel Brooks got some mileage out of the Star Wars = Wizard of Oz idea in “Spaceballs.” ---
**Author:** ![Doubting\_Robert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e495f1/32.png) [@Doubting\_Robert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doubting_Robert)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2002, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-tolkien-havent-i-heard-this-before/120904/33 "2002-07-30T19:57:42Z")
And the Death Star plans are the Ruby Slippers, and the Death Star is the witch’s castle, and . . … ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2002, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-tolkien-havent-i-heard-this-before/120904/34 "2002-07-31T00:00:18Z")
So, then, what role does the Emperor fulfill? Leader of the Lollipop Guild? ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2002, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-tolkien-havent-i-heard-this-before/120904/35 "2002-07-31T04:38:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Skeezix \* > I also wasn’t trying to make the implication that if you start watching **Star Wars** just as you cue up the ‘books on tape’ version of LOTR (is there such a thing? and, good grief, how many tapes would it encompass?) [quick hijack] I have the LOTR BBC radio version on CD. It’s 14 CD’s. Running time = 13hrs, 20min. And even at that, it cuts out some stuff. [/quick hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2002, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-tolkien-havent-i-heard-this-before/120904/36 "2002-07-31T18:55:48Z")
I think that people are being too dismissive of some of the parallels betweens the various stories. Go back and read the reviews that are linked to in my first post. Lucas did indeed read many of the stories that have parallels to his movies: _The Lord of the Rings_, _The Wizard of Oz_, and probably _The Chronicles of Prydain_, the Earthsea series, the King Arthur stories in some version, and the Ring cycle. He knew perfectly well that he was imitating these stories (which might be called Archetypal Quest Stories). He’s talked about the fact that he was using the monomyth from Joseph Campbell’s _The Hero with a Thousand Faces_. (There are also things in _Star Wars_ which don’t come from these archetypal sources, but from other films. _Star Wars_ at times seems to be trying to be a Howard Hawks film about World War II. It contains references to _The Dam Busters_, _Triumph of the Will_, _The Searchers_, and _The Hidden Fortress_.) Of course, many of the smaller parallels are just coincidences, but the fact that the larger structure of the story came from these sources is pretty clear. Furthermore, I think that what Lucas is best at is the overall story structure. Sometimes he’s weak at smaller details, and he’s not really a good dialogue writer. It’s not easy to explain why some writers are good at writing books or films that imitate other books or films and some aren’t. I think it’s because there’s no point taking a plot point from another story unless you understand what it’s being used for in that story. This is why Lucas, in taking the archetypal plot from Tolkien (and various other things), has created a great movie, while most of the huge fantasy series cloned from Tolkien were mediocre. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2002, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-tolkien-havent-i-heard-this-before/120904/37 "2002-08-07T01:00:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Skeezix \* > **[The SW hero] gets help from a green guy who he doesn’t expect to meet in the place he meets him.** Who’s the green guy in LOTR? If you mean Treebeard, I think he was silver-gray. ---
**Author:** ![Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2002, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-tolkien-havent-i-heard-this-before/120904/38 "2002-08-07T05:37:03Z")
**Rilch** : Gollum, actually. I was thinking of that whole bit with him leading Frodo and Sam through hell and back, to get to Mt. Doom. Looking back at the OP, I guess that one **does** fall into the framework I was thinking at the time. Frodo and Sam pick up Gollum in Two Towers, and Luke and R2 meet Yoda in Ep. 5. And the little green guy talks funny in both of 'em, too. I love it. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2002, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-tolkien-havent-i-heard-this-before/120904/39 "2002-08-07T06:30:41Z")
I tend to favor the idea of Lucas drawing from Campbell’s monomyth, as I suspect countless other storytellers have done down the ages. However, I also suspect his success with this was helped in large part by the fact that he wasn’t aware that he was doing it until he had the story arc at least mapped out in his head (I’m not aware if he had any contact with Joseph Campbell before finishing _ROTJ_). Once Lucas had been infected with awareness of the monomyth, how could the resulting self-consciousness **not** creep into the way the story and the way he unfolded it? ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2002, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-tolkien-havent-i-heard-this-before/120904/40 "2002-08-07T07:54:21Z")
Much of the plot and several of the characters in Star Wars were adapted from the Kurosawa film “The Hidden Fortress”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-tolkien-havent-i-heard-this-before/120904.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucas-tolkien-havent-i-heard-this-before/120904.md?page=3)