'luci Reports to Ms Persson's Office for Scolding and Correction

The BBQ Pit
221

[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
Eggs Ackley. I may think Dio is full of shit half the time, but I also think he is smart as a whip, and the other half of the time he is a font of information. FWIW, I suspect IRL we would get along just fine, even though I have butted heads with him a few times on this board. Ensign Edison would be a bit of a … challenge. One not worth the effort, most likely.
[/QUOTE]

You got that right. The fact that this is the Pit is just a coincidence; I act like this all the time. My whole personality is exactly like this. I have no redeeming qualities whatsoever. I’m not even a human being, I’m just a robot programmed to be bitter and furious. I’m not sure why I don’t throw myself in front of a subway train right now, really.

Yeah, but it doesn’t mean I’m wrong.

222

[QUOTE=Ensign Edison]
Oh, you want to play? Come sit on my lap, sugar, let me nibble on your ear. You’re adorable when you stomp your wee foot like that.

What he spewed was just more despicable, intellectually dishonest bullshit. I know by now that arguing with him is pointless, because he’s locked into an infinite mental loop. Calling him on it is germane, since this thread is mostly about calling 'luci on similar dishonesty.
[/QUOTE]

You hate a lot of people, don’t you, Ensign Edison?

223

[QUOTE=elucidator]
I don’t think its (sexual reassignment surgery) a very good idea. I think, in the long run, such surgery will be proven to be misguided…I would remind my friend that, once upon a time, lobotomies were considered therapy. That once upon a time, recovered memories were regarded as truth. That medicine is science, and science changes.
[/QUOTE]
It bears mentioning that this is a foolish and unsupportable argument.

One could just as easily, for example, deny that smoking causes cancer, because after all, doctors once upon a time used leeches and science changes, ya know.

It would be different if elucidator was actually making an honest attempt to critique research and cite compelling scientific doubts. But his stance actually draws from his perception that the individuals involved and the treatment for their condition is, well, icky, and that he doesn’t have to give any credence to the problems of this minority because, well, some minorities are more deserving than others, in his world.

At this point it’s like trying to argue with Archie Bunker. Nothing will penetrate.

224

Imagine if someone had posted: I won’t vote for that fag, Dennis Kucinic. And I mean “fag” in a derogatory sense, too, because I just don’t think there is such a thing as being gay and so I have conptempt for any term that describes that fanciful condition (pardon the pun). We’d be having exactly the same discussion, except it would be a lot nastier, and **elucidator **would be on the other side of the argument.

225

[QUOTE=Ensign Edison]
You got that right. The fact that this is the Pit is just a coincidence; I act like this all the time. My whole personality is exactly like this. I have no redeeming qualities whatsoever. I’m not even a human being, I’m just a robot programmed to be bitter and furious. I’m not sure why I don’t throw myself in front of a subway train right now, really.
[/QUOTE]
No, you just come across as a pissy little bitch even when you have a good point to make. And I certainly don’t “fucking hate” anyone on a message board.

You may be well worth the effort to get to know. I’ve just seen no evidence of it.

226

[QUOTE=Evil Captor]
You hate a lot of people, don’t you, Ensign Edison?
[/QUOTE]

I’m glad you posted to me. Do you know some people think I’m your sock? I think it was because I stood up for you when practically no one else would, then was active a lot right when you were gagged for a while. Funny, though.

Anyway, if you seriously want to talk about my capacity for hate, you’re free to start a thread about it, or email me. If you’d like to address any of the non-hating-Dio points I’ve made – heck, that anyone you don’t think is a dipshit has made – that would be great. If you just wanted to take a cheap shot, so be it. Take as many as you like. Tell me I should get shot in the elbows and I’m a human bunion. Just don’t then turn around and tell me not to complain because you’re on my side.

227

[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
Preach it, sister. Some folks actually share their homes with demons like this! Even worse, people have been known to allow these kind of monsters to run free on their property.

To quote the esteemed/maligned elucidator, no matter how fast you run, the weirdness runs faster.
[/QUOTE]
:: hangs head in shame ::

Crap, Mister, you… you know about my personal fetishes. Damn. Exposed to the world now, for all to see and snicker at.

228

[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
No, you just come across as a pissy little bitch even when you have a good point to make. And I certainly don’t “fucking hate” anyone on a message board.

You may be well worth the effort to get to know. I’ve just seen no evidence of it.
[/QUOTE]

I’m not afraid of the word “hate”. Or “love”, for that matter. I would say there are people here who I fucking love, too. I could stop fucking hating Dio and start fucking loving him at any time, for that matter. In fact, in order to fucking hate him I have to sort of fucking love him too, or I wouldn’t care.

I’ve seen no evidence that you’d be worth the effort to get to know either; you or most people here, except the ones I fucking love. I don’t evaulate people here based on whether we’d get along in a bar, because there’s clearly not enough evidence either way for most of them.

229

[QUOTE=elucidator]

Now, if you tell me someone is a woman trapped in a man’s body, I have my doubts. That puts too much warp in the whole mind/body thing. How does one have a being that is independent of a body? Is a female soul misapplied to a male body? By what mechanism? Magic?

But I have no problem at all that someone might believe that. Or that such a belief might lead to despair and misery.

But isn’t it equally possible that the belief itself is the problem? Not that I know, but how would you or I prove it, yea or nay?
[/QUOTE]

I repeat, my good friend, get an education about this. It’s readily available.

230

[QUOTE=Weird With Words]

What I’m getting at is this: Isn’t that the cornerstone of tolerence? To say, “it doesn’t matter if your lifestyle bothers me, it’s your lifestyle”? And, conversely, to be able to say, “It doesn’t matter if you don’t like it, it’s none of your business”?
[/QUOTE]

How much do I envy the fact that you got to have him for a Daddy?

231

Some questions to the pose to the knowledgeable.

Has the acceptance of such surgery, amongst medical practitioners, increased or decreased? I would imagine such surgery would find resistance, under the circumstances. And I would also think that, since such surgery has a considerable history (seeing as how the cited study was done in 1988), there would be a fair degree of time to get a picture of the efficacy of the treatment. I note that the LBGT HealthChannel

http://www.lgbthealthchannel.com/transgender/surgery.shtml

states that “About 80% of sex reassignment patients are satisfied with their results.” Now, if this qualifies in your mind as “overwhelmingly positive”, so be it. To me, “overwhelming” would be in the high 90’s.

Note as well: http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html
titled: A Warning for Those Considering MtF SRS and its publication of the stories of such persons who have regrets. Of course, if anyone can show me a reason to think that this is disinformation with dark motives, I am open to such. I do tend to place a lot of faith in sites that have .edu in them, but it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been fooled.

Aside to Matt da Man:

[QUOTE=Matt]
…I hope what I’ve had to say helps in some way, however.
[/QUOTE]

You kidding? You are positively a ray of sunshine!

232

So, Boris, you have been scolded and corrected for five pages now, when are ya gonna accept your correction, honey? Don’t you knwo that most of the folks whose attentions you’ve tied up here have much more ignorant and damaging OPs to shred? C’mon, darlin’ give it up, it goes something like this:

“I, 'luc, am completely and utterly creeped out by the very notion of anyone, particularly a man, deconstructing his genitals for any reason whatsoever. This has led to some cloudiness of my usually sparkling clear perceptions. Now that I have publicly acknowledged this little failing, my good friends here on the Dope have helped me to understand that there is solid science, astonishingly, supporting the…the…fff…f…fa…fact that there really are people in the world whose brains are chemically and genetically, and therefore psychologically, out of line with their genitals, and surgical scrambling of those same genitals is a good thing. Therefore it is my own icked out prejucdices which led to my ill-considered remarks about equality of respect between homosexuals and transgendered persons in my OP. I have to admit that I still FEEL exactly the same as I always have, but my powerful, exceedingly rational and fair brain will no longer allow me to argue that my feelings, which lead to my cloudy beliefs, are correct. I will shut up now.”

And then we can talk about the real question: Is it inherently rude towards transgendered people to suggest that Coulter IS one because of her appearance, and to do so with teh absolute intention of being rude towards her? Does it follow that one is being rude to transgenerder people?

Class, can we think of any other examples of this kind of thing to compare it to to see if we are being overly sensitive about transgenderedness, or whether there is an underlying truth here that applies?

233

[QUOTE=Ensign Edison]
I don’t evaulate people here based on whether we’d get along in a bar, because there’s clearly not enough evidence either way for most of them.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t evaluate people based on whether we’d get along in a bar either, except for how I think we’d get along in a bar.

234

Boris, why are you ignoring me?

[QUOTE=elucidator]
Some questions to the pose to the knowledgeable.
states that “About 80% of sex reassignment patients are satisfied with their results.” Now, if this qualifies in your mind as “overwhelmingly positive”, so be it. To me, “overwhelming” would be in the high 90’s.

[/QUOTE]

Oh stop, you’re making me crazy. As has been explained to you:

1- there are people who THINK they want the surgery but don’t really qualify. If they manage to fool their doctors, or go to Ijuana to get it, they will not be happy afterwards because they misidentified the source of their unhappiness. There are they unhappy.

2- It aint’ perfect surgery. Sometimes people come out the other end with stuff that just never works quite right. There are they unhappy.

3 - People can be unhappy because of their gender issues along with a whole bunch of other things. They are true transgenders, but they are so screwed up that the surgery doesn’t magically fix everything so they blame the surgery for failing.

I think those three easily account for the 15-20% you want to use as proof that everyone is imagining things.

This is very complex stuff, hon, and you are demanding perfect answers. Do you have a fever? Have you been watching a little too much Fox news or something? This kind of black and whiteness aint like you at all.

And hey, remember my beloved Boris whom I always adore even when you’re being a pain, even if you concede completely, no one will ever suggest messing with your junk. Or Weird’s.

235

[QUOTE=elucidator]
Has the acceptance of such surgery, amongst medical practitioners, increased or decreased? I would imagine such surgery would find resistance, under the circumstances.
[/quote]

AFAICT, it has increased, as the Harry Benjamine Standards of Care have been increasingly accepted for trans-spectrum patients.

Here’s a cite regarding discomfort after SRS: Kuiper A. J. and Cohen-Kettenis P.T. (1998) Gender Role Reversal among Postoperative Transsexuals. IJT 2,3,

Also, as was pointed out, “regrets” can include anything, ranging from “I wasn’t a transsexual in the first place” to “I really should have sprung for FFS as well” to “My neophallus doesn’t look like I would like it to” to “I have experienced significant transphobia since I transitioned.”

Reading the “Warning” piece that you posted a link to, it’s by Lynn Conway, a significant figure in the trans world, so I doubt it has ulterior motives. I’m running off, but skimming it briefly, it does not seem to be saying, Be warned, SRS is a bad idea. It is saying, be damned sure you know what you’re doing, and make sure it’s done well; here are some things that can go wrong. Which is true of any suite of major surgical procedures, AFAIK.

236

[QUOTE=Stoid]
…And then we can talk about the real question: Is it inherently rude towards transgendered people to suggest that Coulter IS one because of her appearance, and to do so with teh absolute intention of being rude towards her? Does it follow that one is being rude to transgenerder people?

Class, can we think of any other examples of this kind of thing to compare it to to see if we are being overly sensitive about transgenderedness, or whether there is an underlying truth here that applies?
[/QUOTE]

Natasha, Light of the West, so far we have about 6 different views on what the “real” question is. Tell you the truth, by this time I’d pretty much forgotten about the delightfully equine Ms. Coulter. (No, ETF, I don’t mean to compare her to horses! Horses are good, Coulter is evil!). Right now, I’m just hanging on and riding it out. Though, I’d have to admit, the sheer novelty of being considered too conservative is…well, kinda refreshing!

It is my opinion that, in the longer run, this surgery will prove out poorly. I wouldn’t mind a bit being wrong, I’m a pessimist, I love to be wrong! Which is to say, I’m a pessimist, therefore I love surprises. That is my opinion, subject to change as facts become available. I cannot fathom why this opinion should be held to be hateful or regressive. It is an opinion about the advisability of a procedure, not the value of the patient. It should not have any political dimension whatsoever, any more than an appendectomy or a tonsilectomy. There are a number of persons who who have received this treatment (a term used advisedly) who regret their decision. Who do they hate?

As to the tactical advisability of adding further dimension to the GBL unpopular front for the liberation of all of us…yes, I thought that inadvisable then, and still do. Not my call to make, and nobody asked me, but that’s what I think. It is a tactical disagreement, how to attain what is desired, not even remotely suggesting the goal is not desireable!

I think that the biggest boost to the “gay agenda” (again, advisedly) was the turning back of the gay marriage movement. Not because it failed, but because so many people saw so many ordinary people who just happen to be gay, getting married in suits, dresses, flowers, the whole magilla. Because they looked and thought “Gee, that looks just like Uncle Frank! Gosh, he doesn’t *look * wierd.” People are afraid to be weird! (Well, not all of us, praise be!) The battle lost, the war effort advanced. I know thats “Hurray, we lost!”, but sometimes its like that.

So when you add another layer of stuff they can’t relate to, you impede their progress, their halting stumble towards the light. Well meaning, but tactically faulty, like so, so many of our progressive efforts. There is no disagreement about goals, but methods and means. And if I can’t say that without being misunderstood, fuck it! I’ll say it anyway. Anyone who stifles his opinion for fear of disapproval is a moral coward.

(PS: the Err Apparent, in passing, thanks one and all for their welcome…)

237

Now thats the real shit, Matt! Good on ya! When come back, bring more.

238

[QUOTE=Stoid]
…no one will ever suggest messing with your junk. Or Weird’s.
[/QUOTE]

Ah, gee, Natasha, that might have been worded a bit better. I’m, of course, far too old to care about such things, but WWW still retains hope for a life of bawdy ribald and hog wild lovin’.

239

[QUOTE=elucidator]
Now thats the real shit, Matt! Good on ya! When come back, bring more.
[/QUOTE]

No offence to matt, but those cites were posted three pages ago. He hasn’t added anything new, except, apparently, a screenname your willing to actually listen to.

240

[QUOTE=Miller]
No offence to matt, but those cites were posted three pages ago. He hasn’t added anything new, except, apparently, a screenname your willing to actually listen to.
[/QUOTE]

Maybe because he wasn’t screaming at me and calling me names? Maybe because he accepts my argument as an argument, and not an offense?

Maybe you should try it? Maybe?