But how is it different? From your descriptions, they seem to be functionally identical.
All previous hostility aside, I would be interested in your answer. Do you mean to suggest that a gay man who would rather be a woman is “transgendered”, but a gay man who is comfortable being a man is simply gay? In the example above, Will is gay, and Jack is transgendered? Are these the only distinctions that well-meaning hets need to know, or, God forbid, are there more?
Well, hermaphrodite really means “both sexes” and isn’t accurate. Intersex does have the advantage of being more accurate.
Because nature wasn’t designed to be labeled by human language so that everything can fit neatly in one box or another. Not being an expert on this, I would assume that a fem gay guy who doesn’t think he’s actutally a woman would not be a transsexual. And technically I think the term “transsexual” refers to people who have had “the change”-- I don’t know what you call the pre-op types. Clearly we need another term! 
This is not entirely accurate. There is such a thing as a female transvestite, or “drag king.” Although there’s a lot more social latitude given to women’s fashions resembling men’s fashions, there are still some boundaries that women do not routinely cross. You do not often see, for example, a woman wearing a man’s suit and tie. [url="File:Kingsporch.jpg - Wikipedia"These fine fellows, for example, pretty clearly demonstrate that there’s such a thing as a woman in male drag. (Although I suspect a few of them are actually FtM transexuals, not transvestites. Hard to tell from just a photo.) False beards and moustaches are another example of something that clearly delineates “a woman wearing men’s clothing,” and “a woman trying to look like a man.”
Sorry, but it really doesn’t answer anything. Which cause was “transgender” coined to help? Gay rights or women’s rights? And how does it hinder either?
Well, for starters, there’s nothing delusional about it. Someone who is transgendered feels that they would be happier if they had been born into the opposite sex. This references an internal state, not an objective reality. A man insisting that he did not, in fact, possess a penis, that would be a delusion. A man insisting that he doesn’t want a penis is expressing a preference.
It doesn’t say anything at all about them, and we should not be urging surgery upon them, as there’s nothing about themselves that needs surgical correction. An expression of masculine or feminine mannerisms is not the same as transexuality, and neither transexuality or mannerisms have anything to do with homosexuality. There tends to be a lot of overlap between these subjects, but they are very much seperate issues at their heart. A man who acts in a feminine manner is not necessarily gay. A man who undergoes sexual reassignment surgery is not necessarily going to act feminine before or after the process. There are MtF transexuals who identify as butch lesbians. There are FtM transexuals who act like stereotypically queeny gay men. You seem to be confused as to the differences between sex, sexuality, and gender.
Yeah, I see your point, Frank, but it seems a bit exaggerated. Why should a Gay and Lesbian Alliance need a seperate category for “transgendered”? Aren’t they gay? Are they so distinct that a seperate category is necessary?
I’m a bit confused with the terminology. Are transsexuals then, the same thing as transgendered? Further, what does one call a man “trapped” in a woman’s body (or viceversa) who falls in love/marries a person of the “opposite” sex? A “male lesbian”?
As far as a there not being a psychological “cure” for the disorder – and I don’t quite understand how it cannot be a disorder – what you’re saying is that surgery “solves” the problem?
Lastly, how “good” is the surgery in terms of organ change?
’luc…totally agree with you there. As I said, I’m one kinky hetero MF. But there’s a time and a place for everything.
On preview: wow, lenghty response, Excalibre, thanx.
Will take my time to try and digest it and likely come back with sopme further comments/queries.
Again, I freely admit to not being well-versed at all on this topic. And I must also admit I find the whole thing rather odd – likely on account of knowing so little about it.
I don’t think anyone is claiming to understand all this stuff perfectly, 'luc. But why must everything fit into some narrowly defined box in order to be authentic? And a transsexual is not just someone who is gay-plus. Why must the gayness come first? If they are truely female (or male) in their mental make-up, then being attracted to the same sex would be “normal” for them. It’s not your penis that makes you attracted to women, you know. It’s your brain.
'Luci
Thanks.
I’m feeling a whole lot better about how stupid I looked a few days ago, even if it’s obvious you are just pretending.
This was nice of you.
I believe “hermaphrodite” derives from the names of the Greek gods Hermes and Aphrodite, and specifically refers to someone born with genitalia of both sexes. This is usually surgically corrected at birth, to my understanding. Also, the use of the word “hermaphrodite,” applied broadly as a synomym for “intersex” or “trangender” isn’t likely to win you any awards for clarity or sensitivity. Even among transgendered and intersexed people, there is considerable debate about which term is preferable. Stick to using it in a clinical way when you’re talking about plants or goldfish.
The rumor is that she had a condition called testicular feminization, also called androgen insensitivity syndrome. The rumor has no concrete proof. Even so, so what? Any woman you know in the street could possibly have it; incidence runs about 1 in 20K people. It doesn’t harm them or you to know what kind of chromosomes a woman has on the inside, so I’d chalk this one up to “we’ll never know.” Until, of course, the inevitable Jamie Lee Curtis tell-all autopsy in 40 years. 
The International Classification of Diseases says gender identity disorder is the persistent identification with a gender other than the gender the patient was assigned at birth. (This is not tied to the patient’s actual chromosomal sex. That is, if a baby has XX male syndrome, he appears physically male, and is given a male identity at birth, regardless of being XX. This does not mean the baby is transsexual or will have GID.)
Transsexualism, says the ICD, includes also the desire to change and live as the preferred gender. I personally dunno about adding “has the desire to,” because almost by definition, doctors don’t hear about transsexuals who don’t want any treatment.
Transgendered is an umbrella term; transsexual is a subset of transgendered. One can easily be transgendered (that is, having gender identity disorder) without necessarily being transsexual.
Again, some people object to the term “disorder” and may prefer the term gender dysphoria.
True hermaphroditism is clear from the physical genitalia; GID may leave some physical evidence of its existence in the hypothalamus, depending on the patient, but studies on this have been somewhat limited. The hypothalamus is sexually dimorphic: a man’s hypothalamus differs from a woman’s in very obvious and visible biological ways, developing as a result of the hormones it is exposed to.
From what I’ve seen, a gay man’s hypothalamus isn’t visually different from a straight man’s. However, there is some striking similarity between a transgendered woman’s hypothalamus and a cisgendered (non-transgendered) woman’s. I don’t think it is yet known whether this is the cause of GID, or simply an effect of the brain’s natural development to the hormones it gets.
Anecdotally, I understand rates of chronic depression and suicide from pre-operative transsexuals is high. By that measure, yeah, treating it as a mental-only condition probably won’t result in a high rate of success.
No shit! I wasn’t before, but I am now! I thought that line about “a lesbian trapped in a man’s body” was a joke! You’re telling me it’s not?
I don’t doubt your sincerity, but cannot relate. One thing for sure, things keep going like this, the banner for the parade will get to be longer than the parade itself.
An “effeminate homosexual” doesn’t actually feel like or want to be a woman. They’re happy having a penis.
I have to say, this thread is very surprising coming from you, elucidator.
Indeed. I don’t often agree with you, especially on politics, but this is such a bizarre stance, it seems like a put on.
Why are you so insistent at categorizing people in ways against their will? Jack showed no signs of being transgendered - he didn’t claim to be a woman, or dress as a woman, or anything of the sort.
Another surprise for you: transgenderism doesn’t correlate that strongly with sexual orientation, at least from what I’ve seen. A lot of MTFs are attracted to both genders, or exclusively to women.
And yes, there are lots of other terms. More than you can imagine. Funny thing, people’s gender identity isn’t necessary binary, just as people’s physical sex and sexual orientation. It seems like a much bigger leap to me to insist that while physical sex can easily be shown not to always boil down to two well-defined groups, and people’s sexual orientation certainly doesn’t, that their gender identity ought to, and it ought to line up perfectly with their physical sex (when some people’s physical sex isn’t actually clear to start out with!)
What in the world are you talking about?
Indeed it does. And purely psychological or psychiatric approaches don’t seem to. Much like being gay, the evidence I’ve run into suggests that transgenderism is not something that can be “fixed” except by modifying the body to match the mind.
Not knowing about or understanding something isn’t a problem, so long as you don’t insist based on that ignorance that it doesn’t exist. That’s my problem with elucidator - if he’s unclear on even the simple difference between cross-dressing and transgenderism, then how can he possibly be able to claim that transgenderism doesn’t exist?
Sorry, John, no sale. The Monster has urged me to situations that my brain screamed “Danger, Will Robinson, you dumb sack of hormones! Danger, goddamit!” The brain always won, of course. Almost. Close enough.
Guys, I’m not endorsing this page, but it contains a fairly concise yet broad-ranging article of the subject, with some citations but no external links.
The one thing I’d like to point out here is that, while this article may be pure opinion on the lexicographers’ part, the citations indicate quite a wide range of human cultures that have found the incidence of gender identity conflict common enough to have developed words and terms to describe it, and social-norming ways of dealing with it.
That may not be “definite” enough for some, but it sure indicates a phenomenon --whether you consider it delusional or not-- that various cultures besides 20th/21st Century American progressive society have accepted as real.
And my $100? Pay Pal? Western Union?
Yes.
Wouldn’t it be horrible if someday “Pride” parades just included everybody…
But it was your brain that sent the ATTENTION! order to Mr. Happy in the first place.
The problem is, these terms are recently used and have changed means over time. Transsexuals are individuals who identify as the opposite gender than the one they were assigned at birth. Some people who identify as transsexual are just crazy but a good percentage are intersexed. Not all intersexed individuals are transsexual, some are fine with the gender box they were placed in at birth. Some intersexed women never find out they are XY until they fail to get pregnant. Of those who transition, sometimes transitioning is required. I have a friend who is XX yet developed more towards male. She had to take hormones either way, and decided to go towards female because that was the one that she felt most comfortable as. Either way, she would be transsexual. The only way she would not be transsexual would be to remain a bigendered individual which would not be accepted in this society.
Do you think she is crazy elucidator? Do you think she should not have transitioned?
I have another friend who always strongly identified as female despite having normal (but small) male genitalia. She was more feminine than most guys are and never really needed to shave even after puberty. She decided to transition and after she had been on hormones for a while, she did a genetic test which revealed that she had Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. She was intersexed.
Is she crazy? Should she not have transitioned?
What about individuals with AIS who develop into women phenotypically? They have vaginas. Should they be forced to transition into males because they have XY chromosomes? What about individuals with AIS who have confusing genitals? Should they be forbidden from transition despite the mockery many of them report?
Early today I was talking to a 14 year old girl who was born with male genitals but developed breasts at puberty. She has an extremely rare condition caused by an abundance of testosterone in early pregnancy. Should she be forced to live the rest of her life as an “inbetween”? What is wrong with her transitioning so that she can be fully accepted as woman? (or for that matter, if she had wanted to go the other way, being accepted as a man)
Now, as to the difference between transsexuals and transgenders, that depends who you ask. This does not mean that transgenderedness is a lie, it just means that no one official has sorted things out. You also have to remember that these terms vary from country to country and depend on individual identification. Some intersexed people who transition do not want to be considered transsexual because they feel that the common person thinks of transsexuals as “men in dresses” so they only go by intersexed. I do not blame then, especially when they have to deal with bigotted idiots. The doctor who diagnosed my ex labled her GIDNOS which is Gender Identity Not Otherwise Specified. Since my ex had a hormone disorder that made her more feminine than a normal male, she is intersexed and recieved GIDNOS from her doctor rather than GID. But I have known other intersexed individuals who were labled GID by their doctors.
I know of some professionals who lable all those with GIDNOS as transgendered and GID as transsexuals, while others put them both under the lable of transsexual. I have also heard the term transgendered used for intersexed people who do not decide to transition. I see no reason why an intersexed person should be forced to pick a gender if they do not wish to. It’s a very hard life and most people I know who are intersexed transsitioned to avoid dealing with the complications that arise from being a bit of both.
As I’ve said before, there is plenty of evidence for transsexualism being biological in origin. There are good biological explanations for why it can occur. If you have any evidence for it not being biological in nature, I’d love to see it.
Excalibre:
Good post but I never mentioned in a thread about height being used to “figure out” transsexuals. I just said that of those I knew to be intersexed and have met in person, most of them are lower in height on average than males. But I also know a lot of asians living in Southern California. And I have not compared their heights with asian males. There have not been any studies done on heights and transsexuals that I’ve been able to find.
Are you trying to be cute, here, or do you honestly think that sexual attraction is centered in the genitalia, and not the brain?
Not a fair comparison. There have been, thus far, any number of definitions of trangender. You claim that yours is correct, as it very well may be. My claim was that it was ill-defined, period. You can rightly expound your definition, but absent some Certificate of Authority, that’s about all.
