'luci Reports to Ms Persson's Office for Scolding and Correction

The BBQ Pit
141

Well, I am not the “asshole” in question, but I can tell you what my textbook (Abnormal Psychology, 13th ed, Butcher 2006) says, because I just read the section on GID.

“Psychotherapy is usually not effective in helping adolescents or adults resolve their gender dysphoria (Cohen-Kettenis, Dillen, et al., 2000; Zucker & Bradley, 1995). The only treatment that has been shown to be effective is surgical sex reassignment.”

“A 1990 review of the outcome literature found that 87 percent of 220 male-to-female transsexuals had satisfactory outcomes (meaning that they did not regret their decisions) and that 97 percent of 130 female-to-male transsexuals had successful outcomes (Green & Fleming, 1990). More recent studies have reported similar findings. Thus the majority of transsexuals are satisfied with the outcome of sex reassignment surgery, although there is variability in the degree of satisfaction (Cohen-Kettenis & Gooren, 1999; LeVay & Valente, 2006). In spite of the reasonably good success record for transsexual patients who are carefully chosen, such surgery remains controversial because some professionals continue to maintain that it is inappropriate to treat psychological disorders through drastic anatomical changes.”
Does that count?

142

He’s not a teenager yet, is he?

Would you be willing to take your own son’s word on how he feels? Or would you decide he’s delusional because his view of gender does not mesh with yours?

No, what happened is that you said “X,” and people pointed out that “X=XY.” The problem isn’t that we don’t understand what you’re talking about, the problem is that you don’t understand what you’re talking about. All your indignation to the contrary, your position in this thread has been distinctly bigoted. I take no pleasure in telling you that. I’m not saying it to get a dig in on you, but rather in the hopes that you will recognize this flaw for what it is and act to correct it.

No, he didn’t. Your gay friend was a prejudicial moron. There’s absolutely no difference between saying, “A TV can just change his clothes,” and “A homosexual can just stay in the closet.”

And, once again, there’s a difference between being a transvestite and being transgendered.

143

I don’t believe I’ve called you an asshole in this thread.

144

Elucidator, I’m usually more in line with your posting here, but this issue is confusing me.

In your original posting, Anne Coulter (certainly no friend of mine at all), is portrayed as a trangenderred harridan. I think that’s giving her more complexity for digestion than is needed. I’ve not seen any evidence that she is transgendered, so can only assume that it’s a jibe. One I hear all the time on the Stephanie Miller Show, which I listen to and love, but I’ve never quite got that particular jibe as funny.

Perhaps it’s to make fun of Ms. Coulter as a patriarchal shrill shill, which I’d have to agree with,she’s just awful like that; but, to then turn it to slandering a whole class of people that she has no right to be a member of is insulting, at least, and irresponsible at a basic level.

Maybe I’ve missed out on Anne Coulter’s permutations, so, either enlighten me to her true sexual self (prolly I don’t really even want to know), or lay out why the har hars at her physical being are such a chuckle.

145

It sounds to me like you guys want to redefine the word “gender” and then get your panties in a twist if someone still uses the old defintion. Some people still archaically think that “male” and “female” refers to chromosomes and genitalia since that’s pretty much what it’s ALWAYS meant in the English language until maybe the last couple of decades or so, and even then it’s STILL the definition as most people understand it.

I don’t have the slightest animosity towards TG folks but I don’t think they’ve earned any right to dictate how everybody else should define or understand gender. I know a lot of you dearly love to be offended but the thin-skinned, sanctimonious shit storm over 'Lucy’s throw away remark in the other thread is exactly what people mean when they talk about self-righteous, PC liberals. All of you know damn well that Lucy doesn’t have spiteful bone in his body towards GLBT people nor any desire to oppress them, harm them or deny them any rights. He’s just from an older generation that hasn’t quite caught up to how these terms are now used and understood, both medically and socially. It took me FOREVER to really get it. I thought the same thing he did – that it was more a question of role playing and dress than anything truly biological. I know more than that now but you can’t expect that everyone will, or even that everyone has a moral obligation to abide by new definitions of gender if they do understand it.

GLBT have a lot of real enemies. Elucidator isn’t one of them.

146

I couldn’t agree more. This one really stands out:

Bolding emphasis mine. I don’t think you seem to understand that it was this comment that people are responding to so vehemently, and this comment that you’ve alternately either denied making or soft of half-assed defended.

Pal, if you’re going to start a fire, don’t fucking cry when everyone brings marshmallows.

147

She’s a biological woman, so far as anyone knows. There are a lot of people on the internets (not just here) who joke that she looks like a transexual, not that she really is one.

148

And you can point to where someone troubled him over his definition of “gender”? Because my irritation stems from him saying that transsexualism simply doesn’t exist and that sex reassignment surgery is “mutilation”.

Yes, shame on Una Persson, that paragon of PC, liberal fanatacism!

Oh, wait . . .

Well, no, not based on what he’s said. Is stating that transexuals are ipso facto delusional because their gender identity and physical sex don’t match really acceptable to you? Because, once again, this has a very clear parallel for homosexuality. Plenty of preachers would be glad to tell me that Jesus loves me, and wants me to turn away from sin and become ex-gay. I don’t think that’s acceptable either. Lovingly telling someone that dealing with their gender identity constitutes “mutilation” - gosh, I’m not seeing a reason to throw a party here.

I think everyone has an intellectual duty to use clear reasoning and attempt to evaluate the world on the basis of rational inquiry. Part of that involves not making proclamations about things you don’t understand - as 'luci did and persists in doing. While I’m a bit miffed on behalf of my trans friends, I’m also perturbed (as it seems I often find myself) because he has repeatedly evinced unclear thinking and flawed reasoning in his arguments, and he has persisted even after it’s pointed out. Perhaps I shouldn’t let the cloud of confusion that seems to fill most people’s craniums bother me, but I would like to do my part to blow a bit of it away if I can.

149

I have to say, at least when it comes to the T in GLBT, that I don’t know any such thing. He’s rock solid on gay rights, and that’s great. But transexual rights are not the same as gay rights, and his entire line of reasoning here is based on prejudice and assumption, and little-to-no first hand knowledge of what he’s talking about. He is, in a word, ignorant. And worse, he’s making some sweeping judgements about people based on that ignorance. I don’t care how old, or how liberal a person is. That’s not cool. That is, in fact, precisely the sort of thing this board exists to eradicate. And, truth be told, if anyone can be convinced they’re wrong on an issue like this, it’s elucidator. Which is why he’d been treated much more gently in this thread than would a poster like Clothahump or Martin Hyde, had they made similar comments.

He started this thread, he demonstrated his ignorance, and now he’s getting educated, wether he likes it or not. It might hurt a little bit, but in the long run, it’ll be good for him.

150

Um , yep, have heard all of that, so why is it even “funny”, I’ve never got the funny in it, even though I think she’s a shill, and pretty idiotic.

151

Sex= Biological
Gender= Self-identified (ie, mental, social)

For TS, sex!= gender.

152

Well, it is Anne Coulter that started this, sort of. She probably wouldn’t even notice it.

153

Yep. That was the part I quoted in my first post, and tried to point out later that it was that part specifically that people were mostly riled about.

154

Even so, it’s only an opinion (with regards to whether sexual reassignment surgery is “mutilation”), not an objectively false statement.

155

Man, I swear, when I read how you paraphrase what I said, its like reading Japanese stereo instructions rendered into Korean and then into English. Where do you get this stuff?

Yeah, that’s really clear from your tone, and all. The respectful manner in which you address me, stuff like that. Point of fact, I think you’re picking a fight, you need a homophobe to unlease all this wrath on, and you’ve picked me. It ain’t so, and you’ll have to take my word, or not. Hell, I bet you can’t *find * one on the Boards!

So far, this is the only really rock solid stupid thing you’ve said. Thermonuclear dumb, neutron density dense. I’ll cut you a break, I’ll assume that you’ve already thought better of it, and are just too embarassed to take it back. Cause…you know…I mean, damn!

Well, duh. Now, I was kinda thinking in terms of a TV that wanted to be female as transgendered, and a hetero TV as being transgendered because some of his behavior crosses gender lines, hence, transgender. My aforementioned buddy disagreed, saying you can’t have people in the gay movement who aren’t actually gay. I thought he made a good point, but not sure I agree, to this day. But, after all, its his rubber ducky, not my call to make.

You know, I kinda wonder about something…you do realize the events outlined above, my work buddy and all, that happened thirty years ago? Don’t know why I thought of it.

156

Damn, I was going to buy into a piece of this argument, then DtC comes along and says everything I was going to say, only better.

Well, PRACTICALLY everything …

I can relate to Elucidator’s experience with extremely PC types. I used to know quite a few of them. They tend to make you into either an intellectual doormat, or they make you very hard where your opinions are concerned. I suspect they made Elucidator very hard. You don’t change your opinions because many people want you to, because you have seen otherwise intelligent, reasonable people spew all sorts of ridiculous bafflegab under the influence of a lot of people who want them to believe things (witness Elucidator’s telling story about the woman spending an hour debating whether or not to always capitalize the L in ‘lesbian’ out of “respect”).

Therefore, no matter how badly some of you may wish Elucidator would believe otherwise about transgedered people, he does not, he has made what he feels is a logical decision and will stick by it until convinced otherwise be either sound logic or strong evidence. Some of which has been presented on this thread, and note that Elucidator has responded positively to it, for the most part.

But no amount of bullyragging or threatening or bluster or moaning about how disappointed you are will likely persuade Elucidator, because he has heard all that shit before, in spades, from PC coop types, and as he says, he rejects it because he has come to the conclusion that transgender is a side issue that harms rather than helps the fight for sexual equality.

And frankly, much of what has been posted here has the taint of PC groupthink, which makes it suspect to such a one as Elucidator, and such a one as me, too. If you have strong evidence or powerful logic, present it. Otherwise, clam up, you’re part of the problem not the solution.

157

How fortunate that none of this applies to you, being an avatar of clarity and wisdom. When your first disciples arrive to sit at your feet in rapt awe and devotion, do send us a group photo, won’t you?

158

Um…wow, 4 pages. I apologize for not participating; I just got back from a 400 mile drive.

My intention was never to start a fight but to seek clarification in the original thread to see if offense was intended. No one should go looking for offense, otherwise life would be too hard. I perfectly understand elucidator needing to start a thread to give his viewpoint, since the old thread was closed before he could speak his mind.

There are some really good things written here by some sharp people of the SDMB, and a couple of things I don’t really agree with. I haven’t even read half of them yet myself, but I think most people have done a good job of outlining and defining the real issue(s) at heart. I’ll need to read more after I get off work here so I don’t needlessly repeat something, or even just exacerbate things through ignorance of the debate in progress; forgiveness, please.

159

I’m not sure that’s true.

160

Aside to DtC and Evil Raptor

“I wish I’d said that!”

“You will, 'luc, you will.”

(stolen from Oscar Wilde and Whistler, poss. aprocryphal)