# Lucifer's Hammer book discussion (OPEN spoilers) \[edited title\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 2, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucifers-hammer-book-discussion-open-spoilers-edited-title/706155 "2014-12-02T19:37:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2014, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucifers-hammer-book-discussion-open-spoilers-edited-title/706155/61 "2014-12-06T23:27:11Z")
As an aside, was anyone else amused by the discussion of calculators? At one point, one of the American astronauts mentions to one of the Russians that calculators like his can be had for a mere week’s wages (and that’s probably wages for a well-paid professional). Nowadays, you can get a perfectly good scientific calculator, which probably has more features than that one, for two hours worth of minimum wage. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2014, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucifers-hammer-book-discussion-open-spoilers-edited-title/706155/62 "2014-12-07T02:08:30Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > That’s how I and pretty much everyone I have ever discussed it with envisioned “tidal waves” until we saw what they’re really like… It’s certainly a fun visual though. Niven has said that the surfer is a perfect example of how well he and Jerry work together. He put the surfer on the wave. Jerry built the skyscraper. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucifers-hammer-book-discussion-open-spoilers-edited-title/706155/63 "2014-12-08T17:32:32Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > It’s entirely self-contained. You get a little more “richness” if you read _Neutron Star_ first, but nothing even remotely major. Although it does give you some more detail and some of the “Why”'s" you might have about things at the start of _Ringworld._ I have the original Ringworld. Looking up wiki, it seems these are in the same vein: > [@](#): > > Ringworld (1970) > The Ringworld Engineers (1979) > Guide to Larry Niven’s Ringworld (1994, with Kevin Stein) > The Ringworld Throne (1996) > Ringworld’s Children (2004) If I just stick to those, will they give me a good enough self-contained story that I won’t have to read the other books? What I don’t want to have happen is that I’m reading through one of these books, then I realize I needed to read a different book in order to fully enjoy it. I’m guessing Ringworld’s stories are part of his Known Space series? There’s at least 6 of those books between the first publication of Ringworld 1970 to the last Ringworld book in 2004. Will I need any of them? I kind of compare it to the Lord of the Rings. I can read those 3 books, and the Hobbit, without ever picking up the Simarillion, and still enjoy them fully. Back to Lucifer’s Hammer, I noticed there was a lot of racial tension with Alim Nassar, and later the New Brotherhood army, though less so in the latter because it was supposed to be God’s Army. Reading that now in 2014, it struck me as a little bit archaic. Were things that bad in the 70’s that this kind of racial thing was normal? The book points out astronaut Rick Delanty’s race a lot, once when the Russians asked if Baker was superior or something cause he’s white, and a few times when somebody’s internal monologue mentioned that there may not be a desire for blacks in this new world, making it seem like it was only civilization that kept some of these white people from killing all the blacks they saw. And Alim Nassar was actively surprised when he found out the black Sgt. Hooker was nominally in charge of a large camp filled with a mix of races, as if he couldn’t fathom that white people would take orders from a black man ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucifers-hammer-book-discussion-open-spoilers-edited-title/706155/64 "2014-12-08T17:50:17Z")
There is exactly one Ringworld book that’s worth reading. The sequels not only require backstory from other books, but the books they require backstory from are pretty bad, and drag down the quality of _Ringworld_ by association. If you want to read more Known Space works, a good start is the Man-Kzin Wars anthologies. The Gil Hamilton and Crashlander stories are also mostly pretty good. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucifers-hammer-book-discussion-open-spoilers-edited-title/706155/65 "2014-12-08T18:07:40Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I have the original Ringworld. Looking up wiki, it seems these are in the same vein: > > > [@](#): > > > > Ringworld (1970) > > The Ringworld Engineers (1979) > > Guide to Larry Niven’s Ringworld (1994, with Kevin Stein) > > The Ringworld Throne (1996) > > Ringworld’s Children (2004) > > If I just stick to those, will they give me a good enough self-contained story that I won’t have to read the other books? Oh god! Save yourself! Don’t bother with _Throne_ or _Children_, and one could make the argument to ignore _Engineers_ as well, though I don’t think it is as bad. The trouble is, who made the Ringworld is “answered” in the sequels, but there are those who believe the answer doesn’t fit the continuity of the other Known Space stories. Niven’s answer is that the characters in the other books lied, basically. I’m not really happy with that answer. Also, there’s the whole monsters that live in hyperspace and eat spaceships that came from a passing comment in one story by a character that was not only joking but was discredited, but now it is apparently true in the last book. Reading Ringworld first is fine, but then read Tales of Known Space, then _Protector_. _World of Ptaavs_ is OK, but not necessary. I’m not a big fan of\* A Gift From Earth\*, either as necessary for Known Space understanding or even as a novel! But it does give some history. The Gil Hamilton stories are good, but even though they fit in the KS universe, they are more hard boiled detective stories, and can be read on their own. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucifers-hammer-book-discussion-open-spoilers-edited-title/706155/66 "2014-12-08T18:56:43Z")
Better yet, skip _Protector_. It doesn’t really add anything positive to anything, and it doesn’t make sense on its own merits. That’s the main book I was referring to when I said that the Ringworld sequels required a background of bad books. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucifers-hammer-book-discussion-open-spoilers-edited-title/706155/67 "2014-12-08T20:03:18Z")
Agreed. Skip every sequel. I’m trying to remember if Niven has ever written a sequel that was even remotely as good as the original. I don’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucifers-hammer-book-discussion-open-spoilers-edited-title/706155/68 "2014-12-08T20:27:53Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Agreed. Skip every sequel. > > I’m trying to remember if Niven has ever written a sequel that was even remotely as good as the original. I don’t think so. How about _The Gripping Hand_? It might be close. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucifers-hammer-book-discussion-open-spoilers-edited-title/706155/69 "2014-12-08T21:30:04Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > How about _The Gripping Hand_? It might be close. Ha, ha… ha. Hee hee. Snork. Ha… …oh, wait. You’re serious? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucifers-hammer-book-discussion-open-spoilers-edited-title/706155/70 "2014-12-08T21:46:05Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Favorite scene, now rendered particularly stupid by recent real tsunamis: the surfer. An impact wave could very well look a lot different from a tsunami. A witness to the largest impact wave survived what amounted to “surfing” on the wave over the top of a forest: > [@](#): > > The glacier had risen in the air and moved forward so it was in sight. It must have risen several hundred feet. I don’t mean it was just hanging in the air. It seems to be solid, but it was jumping and shaking like crazy. Big chunks of ice were falling off the face of it and down into the water. That was six miles away and they still looked like big chunks. They came off the glacier like a big load of rocks spilling out of a dump truck. That went on for a little while – its hard to tell just how long – and then suddenly the glacier dropped back out of sight and there was a big wall of water going over the point. The wave started for us right after that and I was too busy to tell what else was happening up there.” > > A 15 meter high wave rushed out of the head of the bay toward Swanson’s anchored boat. The boat shot upward on the crest of the wave and over the tops of standing spruce trees on the entrance spit of Lituya Bay. Swanson looked down on the trees growing on the spit and said he was more than 25 meters above their tops. The wave crest broke just outside the spit and the boat hit bottom and foundered some distance from the shore. > > Swanson saw water pouring over the spit, carrying logs and other debris. The Swansons escaped in their skiff to be picked up by another fishing boat 2 hours later. From source #4 here (it’s a PDF): > **[1958 Lituya Bay earthquake and megatsunami](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1958_Lituya_Bay_megatsunami#cite_note-t14web.lanl.gov-4)** > > The 1958 Lituya Bay earthquake occurred on .mw-parser-output .tooltip-dotted{border-bottom:1px dotted;cursor:help}July 9, 1958, at 22:15:58 PST with a moment magnitude of 7.8 to 8.3 and a maximum Mercalli intensity of XI (Extreme). The strike-slip earthquake took place on the Fairweather Fault and triggered a rockslide of 30 million cubic meters (40 million cubic yards) and about 90 million tons into the narrow inlet of Lituya Bay, Alaska. The impact was heard 80 kilometers (50 mi) away, an Lit... ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucifers-hammer-book-discussion-open-spoilers-edited-title/706155/71 "2014-12-08T21:52:41Z")
So if I just read the original Ringworld, that will give me a decent view into Niven’s universe, the mythology behind the Ringworld, and wrap up a self-contained story? I don’t know if this is a similar comparison, but a couple years ago I read Ender’s Game. It was enjoyable, but it left a few questions. However, due to the number of sequels and the direction people said they went, and the odiousness of the author, I was fine stopping my reading at just the original book and going no further. Will I feel that way after Ringworld? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucifers-hammer-book-discussion-open-spoilers-edited-title/706155/72 "2014-12-08T22:01:13Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > So if I just read the original Ringworld, that will give me a decent view into Niven’s universe, the mythology behind the Ringworld, and wrap up a self-contained story? For the most part. Larry has a number of very good books out there, but you can read _Ringworld_ and leave and still have a decent grip on his work. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucifers-hammer-book-discussion-open-spoilers-edited-title/706155/73 "2014-12-08T22:13:28Z")
Well, _Ringworld_ isn’t exactly a wrapped-up work, but that’s part of its appeal: In the book, it’s a big mystery who built the thing, and that mystery remains unresolved at the end of the book. Part of the problem with the sequels is that they made the mistake of resolving it. As for good Niven sequels, I would argue that _Beowulf’s Children_ was probably as good as _The Legacy of Heorot_. Though it’s hard to say, because the two books have very different feels. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucifers-hammer-book-discussion-open-spoilers-edited-title/706155/74 "2014-12-08T22:17:53Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Well, _Ringworld_ isn’t exactly a wrapped-up work, but that’s part of its appeal: In the book, it’s a big mystery who built the thing, and that mystery remains unresolved at the end of the book. Part of the problem with the sequels is that they made the mistake of resolving it. I thought you were talking about Ringworld, not Rama. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucifers-hammer-book-discussion-open-spoilers-edited-title/706155/75 "2014-12-08T22:36:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Well, _Ringworld_ isn’t exactly a wrapped-up work, but that’s part of its appeal: In the book, it’s a big mystery who built the thing, and that mystery remains unresolved at the end of the book. Part of the problem with the sequels is that they made the mistake of resolving it. > > As for good Niven sequels, I would argue that _Beowulf’s Children_ was probably as good as _The Legacy of Heorot_. Though it’s hard to say, because the two books have very different feels. 1. The mystery was wrapped up in the book and didn’t need any sequels. 2. I thought _Heorot_ was great and _Children_ sucked grendel balls. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucifers-hammer-book-discussion-open-spoilers-edited-title/706155/76 "2014-12-09T06:41:55Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > 1. The mystery was wrapped up in the book and didn’t need any sequels. In Ringworld? No mystery was wrapped up there. At least, not about who made it. All that was started in Ringworld Engineers. Was even the superconductor plague being caused by Puppeteers mentioned in Ringworld? No mention of the map of Mars, Protector spacesuits, vampire protectors, the fate of Teela Brown. I don’t even remember that they made the implication that scrith was the same as twing. Nothing. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucifers-hammer-book-discussion-open-spoilers-edited-title/706155/77 "2014-12-09T12:51:07Z")
I like Protector and The Ringworld Engineers, but I agree they don’t make much sense (especially the latter). > [@silenus](#): > > Agreed. Skip every sequel. > > I’m trying to remember if Niven has ever written a sequel that was even remotely as good as the original. I don’t think so. It’s been a long time since I read them, but what about The Smoke Ring (the sequel to The Integral Trees)? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucifers-hammer-book-discussion-open-spoilers-edited-title/706155/78 "2014-12-09T13:12:26Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > It’s been a long time since I read them, but what about The Smoke Ring (the sequel to The Integral Trees)? The impression I got was that Larry conceived the books together - they were just published separately. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lucifers-hammer-book-discussion-open-spoilers-edited-title/706155.md?page=3)