# Lying About Technicalities **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 19, 2009, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-about-technicalities/496961 "2009-05-19T14:20:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-about-technicalities/496961/1 "2009-05-19T14:20:42Z")
Here’s a typical scenario. A kid has a school trip to Niagra Falls. She has no passport and so needs to show a birth certificate. But she’s applied for a passport and her birth certificate is at some passport office somewhere. So she wants to take her sister’s birth certificate and go as her sister. There’s no conceivable difference to anyone whether she is or is not her sister, and both have the same status in every which way. Is it morally/ethically wrong to do this? (I’m aware that there are other ways of procuring valid ID in this specific situation. This is a question about lying which makes no real difference to anyone.) ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-about-technicalities/496961/2 "2009-05-19T14:23:25Z")
Yes. She’s misrepresenting herself. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-about-technicalities/496961/3 "2009-05-19T14:24:23Z")
Well, yes. She’s trying to get into a country using false papers. If she’s fleeing the Nazis or Communists or something, she gets a pass. But not as a tourist. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-about-technicalities/496961/4 "2009-05-19T14:27:28Z")
Well, first off, it’s “Niagara Falls”. Usually I’m not a stickler for spelling, but you don’t diss Da Falls (yes, that is spelled right). Second, this isn’t a “technicality,” it’s misrepresentation, if not outright fraud. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-about-technicalities/496961/5 "2009-05-19T15:16:56Z")
I’ll dissent: it’s illegal, and I wouldn’t do it because the consequences are so terrible for so little gain. But I don’t think it’s an evil act, a sin. No one is being harmed in any possible way. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-about-technicalities/496961/6 "2009-05-19T15:21:55Z")
It’s illegal, and arguably unethical, but it isn’t morally wrong. Who does it harm? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-about-technicalities/496961/7 "2009-05-19T16:03:41Z")
does her sister know about this plan? because if she’s caught using false papers, both she and her sister might end up on a watch list. if she’s doing it without her sister’s knowledge, it could harm the sister. I’ve seen this happen when underage teens “borrow” an older sib’s driver’s licence to get into a bar, or because they don’t have their own licence. if they get into an accident, it can have implications for the sib whose id they borrowed. (e.g. - points on their driving record, possibly even a conviction for a driving offence) ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-about-technicalities/496961/8 "2009-05-19T16:21:23Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I’ve seen this happen when underage teens “borrow” an older sib’s driver’s licence to get into a bar, or because they don’t have their own licence. if they get into an accident, it can have implications for the sib whose id they borrowed. (e.g. - points on their driving record, possibly even a conviction for a driving offence) I would imagine the consequences are more severe in such instances, since they involve more significant issues, i.e. enabling unlicensed or underage drivers to drive. In any event, it’s hard to see how she could get caught, since she would be carrying no other ID. Although I heard of a case of another guy who once tried this and had a scare. He was part of a group of people in a bus whose ID was handed over in a pile and for some reason the customs guy singled him out of the crowd and asked him for the date and place of his birth. Fortunately for him he had the foresight to memorize these in advance. ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-about-technicalities/496961/9 "2009-05-19T16:52:31Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s illegal, and arguably unethical, but it isn’t morally wrong. Who does it harm? The school, who is organizing the trip. The school has the responsibility to ensure that all students have the proper documents. While a border agent may not know here from her sister, the school certainly does. If she does get caught the school gets to sort it out. Then she runs the risk of some sort of consequence from the school. Never having been to ‘Da Falls’, is one side that much better than the other that the students have to cross the border? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-about-technicalities/496961/10 "2009-05-19T16:54:12Z")
Well, one side’s Canadian, so it doesn’t get spat on when traveling overseas. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-about-technicalities/496961/11 "2009-05-19T16:54:37Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I would imagine the consequences are more severe in such instances, since they involve more significant issues, i.e. enabling unlicensed or underage drivers to drive. I couldn’t tell from your OP - do you mean that the ID is needed just because it’s a school trip, or is it to cross the border? Because if it’s to cross a border, in today’s national security climate it could have some serious consequences to try to enter the US on false ID… ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-about-technicalities/496961/12 "2009-05-19T16:55:38Z")
> [@Dag\_Otto](#): > > Never having been to ‘Da Falls’, is one side that much better than the other that the students have to cross the border? The Canadian Falls are waaaay better! ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-about-technicalities/496961/13 "2009-05-19T17:01:28Z")
It’s needed to cross the border. I was thinking there would be a distinction between false ID used to enable someone to do something they were actually not permitted to do (e.g. drive without a license) or something that they actually are eligible to do (e.g. cross into Canada). I see the latter as being a “dotting i’s, crossing t’s” type of thing - purely a paperwork issue. Perhaps the people at the border take it more seriously, but I wouldn’t think it would be as serious as enabling someone who is actually ineligible. I don’t think the school knows what ID people are bringing, so I wouldn’t think they’re on the hook for anything. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-about-technicalities/496961/14 "2009-05-19T17:11:49Z")
Identity is not a “technicality”. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-about-technicalities/496961/15 "2009-05-19T17:12:44Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It’s needed to cross the border. > > I was thinking there would be a distinction between false ID used to enable someone to do something they were actually not permitted to do (e.g. drive without a license) or something that they actually are eligible to do (e.g. cross into Canada). I see the latter as being a “dotting i’s, crossing t’s” type of thing - purely a paperwork issue. Perhaps the people at the border take it more seriously, but I wouldn’t think it would be as serious as enabling someone who is actually ineligible. If she doesn’t have the identification, she’s not ‘eligible to cross into Canada’. As your post states! :smack: > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t think the school knows what ID people are bringing, so I wouldn’t think they’re on the hook for anything. It’s unethical. It’s immoral. It’s illegal. It’s stupid. As a teacher who has organised trips (e.g. from England to Israel), I can assure you the school has: - told the family what identification is required - told the family what to do if they don’t have it - got a signature from an adult taking responsibility for the kid on the trip ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-about-technicalities/496961/16 "2009-05-19T17:13:40Z")
Let’s look at it differently. Say the child doesn’t have a passport and must provide a birth certificate. In taking out the certificate you inadvertently grab her sister’s BC and give her that for her journey. No-one notices. Has she done something wrong? I wouldn’t worry about faking it. I’d wear the consequences if something went wrong too and deal with the harsh looks and any shouting. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-about-technicalities/496961/17 "2009-05-19T17:14:26Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It’s needed to cross the border. > > I was thinking there would be a distinction between false ID used to enable someone to do something they were actually not permitted to do (e.g. drive without a license) or something that they actually are eligible to do (e.g. cross into Canada). I see the latter as being a “dotting i’s, crossing t’s” type of thing - purely a paperwork issue. Perhaps the people at the border take it more seriously, but I wouldn’t think it would be as serious as enabling someone who is actually ineligible. Talk to Martha Stewart about how lying to federal officials worked out for her. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-about-technicalities/496961/18 "2009-05-19T17:18:22Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > Let’s look at it differently. Say the child doesn’t have a passport and must provide a birth certificate. In taking out the certificate you inadvertently grab her sister’s BC and give her that for her journey. No-one notices. Has she done something wrong? Depends how old she is. Certainly someone’s made a serious mistake. “Oh, I didn’t bring my inhaler!” “Oh, I haven’t brought any money!” > [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > I wouldn’t worry about faking it. I’d wear the consequences if something went wrong too and deal with the harsh looks and any shouting. Why would anyone shout? They’ll just refuse entry. Now who stays with the child? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-about-technicalities/496961/19 "2009-05-19T17:20:41Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Perhaps the people at the border take it more seriously, but I wouldn’t think it would be as serious as enabling someone who is actually ineligible. She isn’t eligible, she doesn’t have the right papers. I don’t think you can separate the two. > [@](#): > > I don’t think the school knows what ID people are bringing, so I wouldn’t think they’re on the hook for anything. They might not be criminally liable for anything, but it would certainly involve some investigation and paperwork. There certainly would be consequences. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-about-technicalities/496961/20 "2009-05-19T17:22:05Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > Let’s look at it differently. Say the child doesn’t have a passport and must provide a birth certificate. In taking out the certificate you inadvertently grab her sister’s BC and give her that for her journey. No-one notices. Has she done something wrong? > > I wouldn’t worry about faking it. I’d wear the consequences if something went wrong too and deal with the harsh looks and any shouting. Seriously? Howsabout we look at it this way, then: You mistakenly run a red light, and no one notices, and nothing bad happens. So you decide that it’s okay to run red lights, as long as you do it with the intention of offering up a heartfelt “My bad!” waving apology to the people who have to slam on their brakes to avoid killing you. :rolleyes: [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-about-technicalities/496961.md?page=2)