# Lying by Omission: is this legal everywhere? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 10, 2024, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-by-omission-is-this-legal-everywhere/1010047 "2024-11-10T22:15:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2024, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-by-omission-is-this-legal-everywhere/1010047/21 "2024-11-12T19:43:34Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > SSI requires a pretty low income - ($963/month from non-work sources, or less than $1971 from work for one person) It doesn’t provide medical or dental benefits although most people are on SSI are going to be eligible for Medicaid and SNAP. Medicaid in some states provides transportation to medical appointments, but I don’t think states are required to provide that. Medicaid or Meals on Wheels might provide home-delivered meals but not Medicare. The fact that someone on Medicare may be able to get services form another agency/program doesn’t mean Medicare is providing those services. Medicare advantage sometimes is , in fact , providing benefits that original Medicare doesn’t. I don’t disagree with any of this; I should have specified that it IS Medicaid (and other programs), not Medicare itself, that would provide the parallel-to-Medicare-Advantage benefits for the low-income seniors being discussed. My basic point was, as you mentioned, about what’s promised in the ads and the implication they all carry that they are offering something wonderful that isn’t available without enrolling in Medicare Advantage. (That’s the lying-by-omission.) Another lying-by-omission implication in these ads that irritates me is the careful wording that may lead many seniors to believe that ‘it’s time to elect your Medicare Advantage plan’—as though this is a task they MUST accomplish. The entire taking-advantage-of-possibly-confused-seniors industry is huge, of course, and features plenty of lying of all kinds (by omission and otherwise). But it’s not just seniors. The “carefully-worded commercials” phenomenon is also on display in the vehicle-service contract industry (such as the ubiquitous CarShield), which no doubt snares many seniors, but also younger people. Note how carefully those commercials describe what the companies do: never ‘pay your repair bill’ but always ‘get your repair bill paid.’ (Anyway, I suppose that’s a different thread.) ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2024, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-by-omission-is-this-legal-everywhere/1010047/22 "2024-11-13T06:49:21Z")
If we’re speaking in the abstract then lie by omission is not always legal even in the US. There are several situations where a business is required to disclose something e.g. if I want to advertize a drug, I need to mention any serious side effects. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2024, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-by-omission-is-this-legal-everywhere/1010047/23 "2024-11-13T18:00:06Z")
Two I can think of A person has a fiduciary duty. For example you pay me to appraise your estate sale and I talk about this and that but DON’T mention the original Van Gogh then offer to buy the estate for $2000 to help you out. Advertising without revealing you are being paid for it. Youtube creators used to get nailed for this all of the time. Under this umbrella would be advertising medicine without mentioning side effects like Mijin mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2024, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-by-omission-is-this-legal-everywhere/1010047/24 "2024-11-13T18:07:57Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > There are several situations where a business is required to disclose something e.g. if I want to advertize a drug, I need to mention any serious side effects. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > A person has a fiduciary duty. …Advertising without revealing you are being paid for it. Youtube creators used to get nailed for this all of the time. Good examples. All due to laws on the books now in the USA. (Whether they will STAY on the books is obviously a discussion for other threads.) I’ll just say: markets outside the USA may develop trepidation about dealing with a USA that repeals such laws (enforcing disclosure) as exist now. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2024, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-by-omission-is-this-legal-everywhere/1010047/25 "2024-11-14T03:53:15Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Was it criminal, immoral, and/or unethical to not break the 11th Commandment (“never wise up a dummy”)? The moral issue only comes if you bargain down from the asked for price. If you pay the asking price, IMHO your conscience is clear. > [@pkbites](#): > > I just turned 64. I get my health insurance from the county I retired from n 2007 but I am required to take Medicare as soon as I am able and the insurance becomes the co-insurance. I am lucky- as a fed I get my insurance for the rest of my life (and for my wife also) at the same reduced price i got as an employee. I did sign up for Medicare A, since that was free. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > A person has a fiduciary duty. For example you pay me to appraise your estate sale and I talk about this and that but DON’T mention the original Van Gogh then offer to buy the estate for $2000 to help you out. Yes, that would be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2024, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-by-omission-is-this-legal-everywhere/1010047/26 "2024-11-14T05:57:51Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > He never shared his knowledge of the painting or painter. He then immediately sold the painting for IIRC seventy thousand. He was the buyer, why would he tell that to the seller? He wasn’t lying by omission or any other means. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2024, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-by-omission-is-this-legal-everywhere/1010047/27 "2024-11-14T14:41:54Z")
As a general principle, failure to disclose is only illegal when the law imposes a specific duty of disclosure. Otherwise, anything not forbidden by specific law is permitted. So “lying by omission” is legal except in specific highly-regulated transactions. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2024, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-by-omission-is-this-legal-everywhere/1010047/28 "2024-11-14T15:27:45Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > As a general principle, failure to disclose is only illegal when the law imposes a specific duty of disclosure. Right. And I would say it’s not lying by omission without that duty to disclose. It is just a failure to disclose. I don’t lie by admission when I meet someone and only tell them my name but not my age, where I live, or what my SSN is. Otherwise everybody lies by omission anytime they don’t tell someone everything they know about anything. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2024, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-by-omission-is-this-legal-everywhere/1010047/29 "2024-11-14T15:47:36Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > And I would say it’s not lying by omission without that duty to disclose. Well, there is the matter of personal ethics where knowing an adverse fact but not disclosing it to someone who will be disadvantaged by it might be the more mundane (although subtle, in this case) form of “lying”. Lies (committed or omitted) remain lies regardless of their legal xontext. Ethics and the law are two systems which don’t always match up. But since the question is not about "unethical " or “immoral”, the point that “any lie is not illegal unless a law makes it illegal” is critical to remember. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2024, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-by-omission-is-this-legal-everywhere/1010047/30 "2024-11-14T16:03:15Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > Lies (committed or omitted) remain lies regardless of their legal xontext. Ethics and the law are two systems which don’t always match up. Yes, so long as some obligation to reveal information exists. Otherwise silence is not a lie in any sense. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2024, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-by-omission-is-this-legal-everywhere/1010047/31 "2024-11-14T20:48:38Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > As a general principle, failure to disclose is only illegal when the law imposes a specific duty of disclosure. I don’t disagree, but note that private companies are permitted to offer Medicare Advantage plans because the federal government grants them that privilege. In some similar situations there are duties of disclosure imposed by that federal government; for example, to deal with various embarrassing incidents connected with reverse mortgages, the feds did impose some duties to disclose on the private companies who were allowed to offer RMs that were **insured by** the feds (specifically by HUD). ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2024, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-by-omission-is-this-legal-everywhere/1010047/32 "2024-11-14T21:49:40Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > In some similar situations there are duties of disclosure imposed by that federal government Well, when I said “law” earlier, I didn’t mean just legislative law. Regulations are the same in this context, and if the executive regulations of a government-mediated process dictate specific duties of disclosure, failing to disclose would be a violation of the regulations, with the possibility of penalties. So not meaningfully different from “illegal”. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2024, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-by-omission-is-this-legal-everywhere/1010047/33 "2024-11-14T21:51:32Z")
Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2024, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-by-omission-is-this-legal-everywhere/1010047/34 "2024-11-15T01:42:02Z")
And in the bigger picture, could ALL the possible info be sent to you and would you read it anyway? Hardly anyone reads the agreements. So, I dont see this as a big problem. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2024, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-by-omission-is-this-legal-everywhere/1010047/35 "2024-11-15T10:45:07Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I don’t lie by admission when I meet someone and only tell them my name but not my age, where I live, or what my SSN is. Otherwise everybody lies by omission anytime they don’t tell someone everything they know about anything I don’t think that “lie by omission” means not telling someone everything you know but nor do I think it is only limited to the legal requirement to disclose. Because there is also whether a person believes the other person _needs to know_ some information. For example, if I’m making dinner, and a guest asks if a dish is vegan, and the answer is it is, but the gravy in a jug that I put next to it is _not_ vegan, there is an expectation that I would warn them about the gravy, either immediately, or if I see them reach for the jug. I don’t know if this is a perfect example, but my point is just that colloquially there can be a meaning for this term as well as what it means legally. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2024, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-by-omission-is-this-legal-everywhere/1010047/36 "2024-11-15T19:35:17Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > For example, if I’m making dinner, and a guest asks if a dish is vegan, and the answer is it is, but the gravy in a jug that I put next to it is _not_ vegan, there is an expectation that I would warn them about the gravy, either immediately, or if I see them reach for the jug. > > I don’t know if this is a perfect example, but my point is just that colloquially there can be a meaning for this term as well as what it means legally. That’s a great analogy. This thread was inspired by my irritation at the careful wording of commercials that, in my opinion, is intended to deceive those not paying close attention. It’s like CarShield “CarShield will get your repair bill paid” which most listeners probably take to mean “CarShield will pay my repair bill.” Which it doesn’t. But the lawyers who write these things are very, very careful. Similarly with the Medicare Advantage ads. The wording carefully implies things that aren’t true. This may not be illegal on its face, but it can and should (in my view) have consequences for companies that are getting rich because the federal government has granted them that chance to get rich. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2024, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-by-omission-is-this-legal-everywhere/1010047/37 "2024-11-15T20:28:07Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > For example, if I’m making dinner, and a guest asks if a dish is vegan, and the answer is it is, but the gravy in a jug that I put next to it is _not_ vegan, there is an expectation that I would warn them about the gravy, either immediately, or if I see them reach for the jug. Because that was a specific question. The idea for some here seems to be is “lying by omission” means not telling everyone the exact ingredients that went into each dish. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-by-omission-is-this-legal-everywhere/1010047/38 "2024-11-21T20:19:39Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > “_In 2019, Medicare Advantage Organizations denied 13% of prior authorization requests that would have been accepted if the beneficiaries were in original Medicare._ ” (See Wikipedia link below.)… > Is it okay to mislead by failing to mention relevant facts (such as that MA is NOT providing anything that Original Medicare isn’t, and in many cases MA is providing far less)? I’m confused by what this implies. EVERYONE who selects a Medicare Advantage plan must already have signed up for “original” Medicare parts A and B, so how is it that a percentage of patients are being denied care that original Medicare covers? In my experience, health care providers bill Medicare when that’s the insurance designated by eligible patients, and it’s only after Medicare approves or denies its share that the commercial Advantage plans decide if and how much of the slack they will pick up. If your provider wants you to have an MRI that’s covered by Medicare, what mechanism would allow a secondary Advantage plan to deny all coverage for it? ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-by-omission-is-this-legal-everywhere/1010047/39 "2024-11-21T20:29:48Z")
There’s a difference between Medicare Advantage and a Medicare supplement. Medicare advantage ( also known as Medicare part C) policies bundle doctor, hospital and prescription coverage all together and if you get yours through say UnitedHealthcare, that is who will be approving treatment and making the initial claims decision. Supplemental policies don’t provide doctor and hospital coverage - they provide prescription coverage, might pick up copays or balance billing - but for doctors and hospitals you still have original Medicare. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-by-omission-is-this-legal-everywhere/1010047/40 "2024-11-21T20:48:30Z")
That makes sense, thanks. Glad I have a Medicare supplement and not an “advantage” plan. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-by-omission-is-this-legal-everywhere/1010047.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-by-omission-is-this-legal-everywhere/1010047.md?page=3)