# Lying whore. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 10, 2006, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153 "2006-04-10T22:26:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/541 "2006-04-19T17:26:54Z")
Reade Seligmann: Brutal rapist, hyper-efficient master-criminal (man did he pack a lot of activity into that half hour!) – but a generous tipper, at least! Maybe it was all the raping that put him in such a good mood. [http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/LegalCenter/story?id=1858806&page=1](http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/LegalCenter/story?id=1858806&page=1) > [@](#): > > “I remember those two guys starting enjoying their food inside my car, but I’m glad I end up with a nice tip and fare $25,” the taxi driver said in his testimony. Sorry, that’s “just what the defense said.” Has NO effect on a priori plausibility of the story. I REALLY hope Nifong has some good stuff up his sleeve. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/542 "2006-04-19T17:31:14Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > 1. The alibi is not as clearly exculpatory as anonymous sources are reporting, or was not divulged to police by the students or their counsel. > 2. Nifong is an idiot. > 3. Nifong is an unethical political hack who doesn’t much care if the case falls apart now because he’s gotten the indictment and stirred up enough shit that he can say, well, there was a coverup, or well, she was so traumatized that she got the ID wrong, or well, let’s go find the Real Rapists, you black folk, vote for me on May 2, because I’ve shown I’m the kind of tough-on-racism prosecutor who won’t balk at prosecuting even non-existent hate crimes (and what’s tougher on racism than that?)! A little bit of (2) and a little bit of (3). FWIW, ABC news seems convinced. [Cite.](http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/LegalCenter/story?id=1858806&page=1) On preview I see you found the same cite. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/543 "2006-04-19T17:38:14Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I will let it drop when you retract your allegations against me, or when you tire of making these mealy-mouthed reponses and quit the field. My money is on the latter. Okay, shit. You win. I’m sorry. You’re right. Mea culpa. I’m a horrible horrible person. Will you drop it now? For the love of the SDMB, _please_ let it drop? PLEASE? Thanks in advance. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/544 "2006-04-19T17:45:18Z")
> [@you with the face](#): > > Okay, shit. You win. I’m sorry. You’re right. Mea culpa. I’m a horrible horrible person. > > Will you drop it now? For the love of the SDMB, _please_ let it drop? PLEASE? > > Thanks in advance. Sure. I don’t think you are a horrible horrible person. But in our new spirit of detente, if you insist … 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/545 "2006-04-19T18:07:50Z")
> [@](#): > > **Contrapuntal** said: > And the fallout begins. Syracuse will not accept transfers from Duke. At least 43 of the 46 players are screwed by this mess, if this indicates a trend, which I strongly suspect it does. Guilt or innocence doesn’t matter, only whether you’ve ever been mentioned in the same sentence as the word ‘rape’. I’d like to ask that Syracuse AD how it’s inappropriate to accept a student who didn’t commit rape. I guess merely being accused, even if it’s not by name, is enough to fuck up your life. After all, the AD didn’t say that they won’t accept a convicted rapist, they said they won’t accept ANY Duke lacrosse player. That means that at least 43 innocent men are being penalized. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/546 "2006-04-19T19:09:13Z")
[Here (via contrapuntal in another thread) is a solid analysis of the evidence and circumstances of the crime to date](http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/5515998) and prospects for the case . Unless more compelling evidence of guilt comes to light it appears the DA’s case is going to be shredded by the defense without too much effort. ---
**Author:** ![Fat\_Chance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8baadc/32.png) [@Fat\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fat_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/547 "2006-04-19T19:10:57Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Reade Seligmann: Brutal rapist, hyper-efficient master-criminal (man did he pack a lot of activity into that half hour!) – but a generous tipper, at least! Maybe it was all the raping that put him in such a good mood. > > [http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/LegalCenter/story?id=1858806&page=1](http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/LegalCenter/story?id=1858806&page=1) > > Sorry, that’s “just what the defense said.” Has NO effect on a priori plausibility of the story. I REALLY hope Nifong has some good stuff up his sleeve. This is part of what I don’t get about this case. There is a picture of him using the atm at 12:24?? Coupled with the phone records and dorm access records…Did the police not look into this at all?? So the accuser fingers this kid. The police interview him, hear his alibi, check his phone records and atm card records, and notice a big timing problem. Shouldn’t this raise a big huge red flag, and lead them to go back to the accuser with the discrepancies? Did they just take her word for it? I would think the first thing the cops would do would be to try to verify the story. When there is photographic and electronic records (rather than eyewitness statments that could be wrong) showing a problem with the story, wouldn’t they question the accuser? Again, its certainly possible that we are not hearing all the truth from both sides, but this isn’t looking good for the DA or the accuser. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/548 "2006-04-19T19:19:31Z")
> [@Fat Chance](#): > > This is part of what I don’t get about this case. There is a picture of him using the atm at 12:24?? Coupled with the phone records and dorm access records…Did the police not look into this at all?? > > So the accuser fingers this kid. The police interview him, hear his alibi, check his phone records and atm card records, and notice a big timing problem. Shouldn’t this raise a big huge red flag, and lead them to go back to the accuser with the discrepancies? Did they just take her word for it? > > I would think the first thing the cops would do would be to try to verify the story. When there is photographic and electronic records (rather than eyewitness statments that could be wrong) showing a problem with the story, wouldn’t they question the accuser? > > Again, its certainly possible that we are not hearing all the truth from both sides, but this isn’t looking good for the DA or the accuser. [The police don’t appear](http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/LegalCenter/story?id=1849938&page=1) to be pursuing interviews with any witnesses who aren’t confirming or supporting the DA’s case. > [@](#): > > When the police came, the alleged victim was still in the car. They tried removing her from the sedan, but she resisted, gripping the brake shaft and holding on tight as they tried to pull her out. The security guard left the scene as police were questioning the alleged victim. According to police affidavits, the woman told police while she was in the Kroger parking lot that she had been sexually assaulted at a party. To date, the full context of the alleged victim’s story is unknown. The prosecutor, Mike Nifong, believes a crime was committed. At the end of the recording, the guard says that police had not returned to talk with her since the night of the incident. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/549 "2006-04-19T19:20:23Z")
**Fat Chance** we don’t know (strike that, I don’t – does anyone else have info.?) whether Seligmann or his counsel gave this possibly-exculpatory (alleged) evidence to the cops. You’d think they would, but, maybe they were just in the process of gathering it, or maybe when they saw Nifong holding the pep rally on the “victim’s” campus to hooting and hollering from the mob, they weren’t so sure he’d make appropriate use of it. Hmmm. [http://www.ncbar.com/forms/22.pdf](http://www.ncbar.com/forms/22.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Fat\_Chance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8baadc/32.png) [@Fat\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fat_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/550 "2006-04-19T19:33:33Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > **Fat Chance** we don’t know (strike that, I don’t – does anyone else have info.?) whether Seligmann or his counsel gave this possibly-exculpatory (alleged) evidence to the cops. You’d think they would, but, maybe they were just in the process of gathering it, or maybe when they saw Nifong holding the pep rally on the “victim’s” campus to hooting and hollering from the mob, they weren’t so sure he’d make appropriate use of it. > > Hmmm. [http://www.ncbar.com/forms/22.pdf](http://www.ncbar.com/forms/22.pdf) I guess. But I’m not even talking attorneys and indictments. I am talking about the investigation before all that. The police should have already been tracing Seligmann’s actions that night as soon as the ID was made from the accuser. One would think that it would lead them to the atm, phone records, and possibly he cab driver. If this woman ID’d the kids, did the police simply go the grand jury and get indictments before interviewing the suspects or verifying her story? One would assume, that after the ID, the police would interview the suspect, get the story, and go check it out first to make sure it all made sense. I suppose you could be correct, and Seligmann was interviewed and didn’t give them any kind of story they could go check out, but that seems a bit odd… ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/551 "2006-04-19T19:39:12Z")
> [@Fat Chance](#): > > This is part of what I don’t get about this case. There is a picture of him using the atm at 12:24?? Coupled with the phone records and dorm access records…Did the police not look into this at all?? > > So the accuser fingers this kid. The police interview him, hear his alibi, check his phone records and atm card records, and notice a big timing problem. Shouldn’t this raise a big huge red flag, and lead them to go back to the accuser with the discrepancies? Did they just take her word for it? I’m guessing you have not read this whole thread. The police did not even begin to investigate until two days had passed. They did not attempt to interview the team to establish alibis, etc., until one month after the alleged incident. By then, the DA had already referred to them as 'hooligans" who had committed " a vicious, racially motivated gang rape." Their attorneys advised them to remain silent. > [@](#): > > I would think the first thing the cops would do would be to try to verify the story. When there is photographic and electronic records (rather than eyewitness statments that could be wrong) showing a problem with the story, wouldn’t they question the accuser? The indictments were sealed. No one knew who was going to be indicted until after the fact. There was no opportunity to present exculpatory evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Fat\_Chance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8baadc/32.png) [@Fat\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fat_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/552 "2006-04-19T19:39:23Z")
Also from Astro’s link: > [@](#): > > On the tape, the guard recounts the conversation she had with the the dancer who came into the store: The woman told the guard she was driving down the street and heard people yelling racial slurs at a woman she had never met before, then, out of sympathy, she picked up the woman and brought her to the Kroger parking lot. > > This contradicts the scenario that the two women were dancing together for lacrosse players earlier that night. ABC News has seen photos of both women dancing in the house at 610 N. Buchanan Blvd. What?? She lied about where she was, and even knowing the accuser? Why would she do that? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/553 "2006-04-19T19:44:09Z")
> [@Fat Chance](#): > > Also from Astro’s link: > > What?? She lied about where she was, and even knowing the accuser? Why would she do that? You have asked one of very many good questions. Here is another–why call 911 to complain about racial slurs (wonder how often that happens?) and fail to mention the rape? ---
**Author:** ![Fat\_Chance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8baadc/32.png) [@Fat\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fat_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/554 "2006-04-19T19:46:23Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I’m guessing you have not read this whole thread. The police did not even begin to investigate until two days had passed. They did not attempt to interview the team to establish alibis, etc., until one month after the alleged incident. By then, the DA had already referred to them as 'hooligans" who had committed " a vicious, racially motivated gang rape." Their attorneys advised them to remain silent… I’ve read the whole thread, and was aware that most people were saying that little investigation was done in the beginning. I was simply pointing out how this is even more obvious now there is new evidence released today that the police seemed to have missed. > [@Contrapuntal](#): > > The indictments were sealed. No one knew who was going to be indicted until after the fact. There was no opportunity to present exculpatory evidence. Again, I’m not talking about the defense presenting any of this to the police, rather, the police should have found this stuff on thier own before it even went to a grand jury. ---
**Author:** ![Fat\_Chance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8baadc/32.png) [@Fat\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fat_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/555 "2006-04-19T19:49:14Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > You have asked one of very many good questions. Here is another–why call 911 to complain about racial slurs (wonder how often that happens?) and fail to mention the rape? Has it been proven that the other 911 call (where the girl talks about walking then driving by the house in the same call) about racial slurs was made by the accuser or the other stripper yet? Playing the other side of this, one could argue that the girl making the 911 calls (about the racial slurs and/or girl not getting out of her car) didn’t know that the other girl had been sexually assaulted at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/556 "2006-04-19T19:49:45Z")
> [@Fat Chance](#): > > I guess. > > But I’m not even talking attorneys and indictments. I am talking about the investigation before all that. The police should have already been tracing Seligmann’s actions that night as soon as the ID was made from the accuser. One would think that it would lead them to the atm, phone records, and possibly he cab driver. If this woman ID’d the kids, did the police simply go the grand jury and get indictments before interviewing the suspects or verifying her story? > > One would assume, that after the ID, the police would interview the suspect, get the story, and go check it out first to make sure it all made sense. I suppose you could be correct, and Seligmann was interviewed and didn’t give them any kind of story they could go check out, but that seems a bit odd… He doesn’t have to talk to them. I don’t know if he exercised this right, but he doesn’t have to. We also (AFAIK) don’t know when the “victim” made her “100% positive” ID of Seligmann. You’d think it would have been, say, pretty soon after the allegation, thus giving the cops time to independently check out his movements on that night. I do not take it for granted, though, that that is when she did it. And since Nifong began this thing threatening some sort of conspiracy or cover-up charges against the players (for exercising their constitutional right to retain counsel), he obviously wasn’t going to take any statement anyone else at the party made as to, e.g., Seligmann’s whereabouts or timetable very seriously, even assuming they were willing to make such a statement in the face of his hostile and overwrought accusations tarring the whole team. By the way, Seligmann’s dorm room was just searched yesterday (after his arrest), the press reports. With a warrant (which they didn’t have when they apparently tried to search last Friday). Interesting. Maybe they had SO MUCH evidence against him even without searching his room that there was no hurry to do so before indicting him. Maybe. Maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/557 "2006-04-19T19:53:19Z")
> [@Fat Chance](#): > > Again, I’m not talking about the defense presenting any of this to the police, rather, the police should have found this stuff on thier own before it even went to a grand jury. I guess my point is it would be difficult for the police to interview the suspect without tipping the DA’s hand. Also, their attorneys had advised them to remain silent. How would the police have found out about the cab or the ATM under those restrictions? The DA has made it clear from the beginning that he has no interest in anything that would eliminate anyone as a suspect. He has apparently believed that the ID was rock solid and the physical evidence compelling, even as it became clear to other observers that such was not he case. Yes, it does seem really stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/558 "2006-04-19T20:02:07Z")
> [@Fat Chance](#): > > Has it been proven that the other 911 call (where the girl talks about walking then driving by the house in the same call) about racial slurs was made by the accuser or the other stripper yet? [Yep.](http://www.herald-sun.com/durham/4-725356.html) > [@](#): > > Playing the other side of this, one could argue that the girl making the 911 calls (about the racial slurs and/or girl not getting out of her car) didn’t know that the other girl had been sexually assaulted at the time. Two dancers go to a party. After dancing for three minutes they become upset and leave. They are convinced to return and dance awhile longer. One of them is dragged into a bathroom and viciously assaulted; strangled, raped, and sodomized with a broomstick. For a half an hour. The dancers then leave. Does it really seem reasonable to you that the second dancer was unaware of the rape? It still does not explain why she changed her story in the middle of the 911 call, or why she called 911 to report an ethnic slur. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/559 "2006-04-19T20:05:53Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Two dancers go to a party. After dancing for three minutes they become upset and leave. They are convinced to return and dance awhile longer. One of them is dragged into a bathroom and viciously assaulted; strangled, raped, and sodomized with a broomstick. For a half an hour. The dancers then leave. Does it really seem reasonable to you that the second dancer was unaware of the rape? Did she make the call right after the accuser returned to the house? Or after she came out? ---
**Author:** ![Fat\_Chance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8baadc/32.png) [@Fat\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fat_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/560 "2006-04-19T20:09:06Z")
> [@](#): > > =Contrapuntal][Yep.](http://www.herald-sun.com/durham/4-725356.html) . Thanks - hadn’t seen more than the suspicion. > [@](#): > > Two dancers go to a party. After dancing for three minutes they become upset and leave. They are convinced to return and dance awhile longer. One of them is dragged into a bathroom and viciously assaulted; strangled, raped, and sodomized with a broomstick. For a half an hour. The dancers then leave. Does it really seem reasonable to you that the second dancer was unaware of the rape? > > It still does not explain why she changed her story in the middle of the 911 call, or why she called 911 to report an ethnic slur. I agree with you that it seems stupid, I was just pointing out that she _could_ claim that she didn’t know what had happened, and that’s why she didn’t report it as a rape at the time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153.md?page=29)