# Lying whore. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 10, 2006, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153 "2006-04-10T22:26:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/561 "2006-04-19T20:11:48Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > The DA has made it clear from the beginning that he has no interest in anything that would eliminate anyone as a suspect. He has apparently believed that the ID was rock solid and the physical evidence compelling, even as it became clear to other observers that such was not he case. Something else to be aware of. North Carolina’s ethics rules (in line with the Supreme Court’s _Brady_ jurisprudence) requires the prosecution to timely turn over to the defense any possibly-exculpatory material the prosecution discovers. To a hack prosecutor, this can be a disincentive to do much investigation beyond cherry picking whatever few initial facts help “his” case (actually, it is the People’s case, and should not be brought if not meritorious, but unfortunately, egos and electoral ambition often get involved), because he would then “just be doing the defense’s job for them.” It’s much harder for a defendant to prove prosecutorial misconduct by virtue of sloppy, inadequate, or tendentious investigation than it is to prove misconduct by virtue of a thorough investigation that reveals information calling the prosecution’s theory into question that is suppressed/not turned over to defendant. Perverse incentives if the prosecutor is not primarily concerned with determining what actually happened as opposed to getting politically-popular indictments/convictions. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/562 "2006-04-19T20:18:59Z")
[http://www.wral.com/news/8820200/detail.html](http://www.wral.com/news/8820200/detail.html) She (reportedly – according to a defense attorney) “identified them by scratches on their bodies.” (Scratches that did not leave any DNA under her fingernails). “The face isn’t familiar, but the torso rings a bell.” BTW, if we haven’t discussed it, these two guys were suspended from school (not like they’d have been doing much of a job of studying for finals anyhow, I suppose). Man, I hope Nifong knows what he’s doing. ---
**Author:** ![Fat\_Chance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8baadc/32.png) [@Fat\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fat_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/563 "2006-04-19T20:21:39Z")
> [@you with the face](#): > > Did she make the call right after the accuser returned to the house? Or after she came out? According to: [This article](http://www.wral.com/news/8392580/detail.html) > [@](#): > > On March 13, police say two dancers showed up at 610 North Buchanan Blvd. just before midnight. An hour later, at 12:53 a.m., police got a call from a woman who says she was passing by the house. > > -snip > > Two minutes after the 911 call, police arrived to find an empty house. > > Neighbor Jason Bissey told WRAL in a recent interview he saw the two dancers leave the house and speed off in their car. > > “About 3 minutes after they drove off, the party totally dispersed and the first unit from Durham police responded,” Bissey said. > > Somewhere between midnight and 12:55 a.m., when officers arrived, the victim told police she’d been raped and beaten for 30 minutes inside the house. > > About 25 minutes after that call at 1:22 in the morning, there was another call. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/564 "2006-04-19T20:22:57Z")
> [@you with the face](#): > > Did she make the call right after the accuser returned to the house? Or after she came out? According to [this timeline,](http://www.wral.com/news/8751837/detail.html) the call was made at 12:53 AM. She returned to the house at 12:03 AM. ---
**Author:** ![Fat\_Chance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8baadc/32.png) [@Fat\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fat_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/565 "2006-04-19T20:24:53Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > [http://www.wral.com/news/8820200/detail.html](http://www.wral.com/news/8820200/detail.html) > > She (reportedly – according to a defense attorney) “identified them by scratches on their bodies.” (Scratches that did not leave any DNA under her fingernails). “The face isn’t familiar, but the torso rings a bell.” > > BTW, if we haven’t discussed it, these two guys were suspended from school (not like they’d have been doing much of a job of studying for finals anyhow, I suppose). Man, I hope Nifong knows what he’s doing. If this is true… Thats funny. This is what 100% positive identification means? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/566 "2006-04-19T20:28:06Z")
> [@Fat Chance](#): > > If this is true… > > Thats funny. This is what 100% positive identification means? Hmm. It’s not like a lacrosse player is going to have any bumps, cuts, bruise, scratches or anything. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/567 "2006-04-19T20:32:06Z")
> [@Fat Chance](#): > > If this is true… > > Thats funny. Except . . . not so much, right? ---
**Author:** ![Fat\_Chance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8baadc/32.png) [@Fat\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fat_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/568 "2006-04-19T20:34:31Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Except . . . not so much, right? Yup, funny in a sickening sad messed up sort of way. ---
**Author:** ![BabaBooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dfb087/32.png) [@BabaBooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BabaBooey)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/569 "2006-04-19T20:37:46Z")
Although I’m sure the chances of their winning are slim, could the lacrosse players file a civil suit against the D.A. if they could prove that he did all of this as a promotional gimmick. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/570 "2006-04-19T20:59:02Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > Although I’m sure the chances of their winning are slim, could the lacrosse players file a civil suit against the D.A. if they could prove that he did all of this as a promotional gimmick. If it proves to be a false allegation, sure, they can sue him and the allegate-or. Some of the elements of (say) a malicious prosecution claim are set forth in: [http://www.aoc.state.nc.us/www/public/coa/opinions/2002/011130-1.htm](http://www.aoc.state.nc.us/www/public/coa/opinions/2002/011130-1.htm) (which interestingly involved a woman’s false allegation of a violent crime). ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/571 "2006-04-19T21:05:07Z")
> [@BabaBooey](#): > > Although I’m sure the chances of their winning are slim, could the lacrosse players file a civil suit against the D.A. if they could prove that he did all of this as a promotional gimmick. They wouldn’t have to (and wouldn’t be able to) prove he cooked this up as a “promotional gimmick,” per se. As stupid as he may be, he’s not stupid enough (?) to file a charge he **positively knew** to be baseless or to manufacture evidence for it. **If** the story proves baseless, the allegation against Nifong would be more along the lines that he “legitimately” received a lurid, statistically improbable tale with little hard evidence backing it on its face, and didn’t care too much to do any additional investigation to see if it checked out or could be independently substantiated (or, independently discredited) before filing super-serious charges against two people. I suspect they might also have constitutional claims on the searches, as well as ethics grievances (no money for those) for his public statements and alleged contacts with represented parties. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/572 "2006-04-20T12:49:38Z")
[http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/04/19/D8H3D7LO1.html](http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/04/19/D8H3D7LO1.html) Again according to the defense, he called the cab at 12:14. The pictures show them dancing happily at 12:02. So if the defense information is correct (we don’t know yet, but as I’ve noted, even weaselly defense lawyers don’t often lie about such specific factual claims that can be falsified), the entire brutal rape was crammed into 12 minutes. Or maybe he called when he was raping her, that happens a lot too. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/573 "2006-04-20T13:06:24Z")
[http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/LegalCenter/story?id=1864425&page=1&gma=true&gma=true](http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/LegalCenter/story?id=1864425&page=1&gma=true&gma=true) Sorry, this article says they were still dancing at 12:03. So it was 11 minutes. Man those white patriarch rapists are FAST and EFFICIENT. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/574 "2006-04-20T15:45:09Z")
I had an eye-opening conversation at dinner last night. Someone (not me) raised the Duke case and I mentioned that it was an example of just how much discretion prosecutors had to use (or abuse). One woman opined that “yes, but it would be wrong not to indict in any allegation of rape – the facts can be sorted out at trial, but what woman would ever report rape if she thought the attacker might not be indicted?” I was stunned to see nods around the table. First, the comparatively high rate of false rape allegations (at least according to the cites in this thread) suggests that some women, at least, have no discomfort in reporting even imaginary rapes. Second, they weren’t familiar with (and kind of just blinked at) the articles I mentioned citing the false-report prevalence; one of them trotted out the reliable 'Everyone knows that women would never lie about rape" dogma. Third, they had no statistics for just how serious a problem underreporting of rape was, or would be in a regime in which dubious rape complaints were not automatically indicted. I accept that there is probably some problem of underreporting of rape. I also suspect that awareness of this problem is far greater than awareness of the false-report problem, and that a reasoned balancing of these two problems (taking into account the reality that underreporting doesn’t threaten to send anyone to jail as false reports do) is precluded by ideology of the “Tawana told the truth”/“Women would never lie” variety. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/575 "2006-04-20T16:21:29Z")
Interesting. [http://www.heraldsun.com/durham/4-726291.html](http://www.heraldsun.com/durham/4-726291.html) > [@](#): > > **Teen charged in murder gets $50,000 bond** > > By John Stevenson : The Herald-Sun > [jstevenson@heraldsun.com](mailto:jstevenson@heraldsun.com) > Apr 19, 2006 : 11:15 pm ET > > DURHAM – A $50,000 bond was set Wednesday for one of two teens accused in Durham’s first homicide of 2006, the March fatal shooting of 24-year-old Alvin Lee Jones. Bond for these two rapists was, of course, set at $400,000. Rape being eight times more serious than, um, murder, in the eyes of Durham prosecutors/judges. (Or, the risk of rapists fleeing being eight times greater). Yeah, there’s no politics at all going on here. ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/576 "2006-04-20T16:38:07Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > First, the comparatively high rate of false rape allegations (at least according to the cites in this thread) suggests that some women, at least, have no discomfort in reporting even imaginary rapes. Second, they weren’t familiar with (and kind of just blinked at) the articles I mentioned citing the false-report prevalence; one of them trotted out the reliable 'Everyone knows that women would never lie about rape" dogma. Third, they had no statistics for just how serious a problem underreporting of rape was, or would be in a regime in which dubious rape complaints were not automatically indicted. Well, a 2% false allegation rate is probably too low, but I’ve been googling and haven’t found much to support your statement that the false allegation rate is 50% (from the one college study you cited). Some cites I found (I have added my emphasis in **bold** : From the [Columbia Journalism Review](http://archives.cjr.org/year/97/6/rape.asp): > [@](#): > > But **the FBI has been saying since 1991 that the annual rate for the false reporting of forcible sexual assault across the country has been a consistent 8 percent** (through 1995, the most recent year available). That’s four times higher than the average of the false-reporting rates of the other crimes tracked by the FBI in its Uniform Crime Report. The agency’s guidelines define a report as false when an investigation determines that no offense occurred. A complainant’s failure or refusal to cooperate in the investigation does not, by itself, lead to a finding of false report. > > If you look to academe for such studies about false reports, **you’ll come across the unusually high percentage found by the Purdue University sociologist Eugene J. Kanin** , now retired. In an examination of rape reports from 1978 to 1987 in an unnamed midwestern city of 70,000, he found that of the 109 rapes reported to the police, 45, or 41 percent, were subsequently classified as false. Kanin also got the police records of two unnamed large state universities and found that in three years, 50 percent of the 64 rapes reported to campus police were determined to be false. > > \ > > And some of the studies are obviously limited. **Kanin of Purdue warned against reading too much into his examination of the small midwestern city: "Certainly our intent is not to suggest that the 41 percent incidence found here be extrapolated to other populations, particularly in light of our ignorance regarding the structural variables."** > > For the reporter, the conclusion is clear. Don’t rely on one source. Talk to the local sexual assault counselors, talk to the local police, talk to the FBI, talk to the academics. Try to make some sense out of all the different numbers. And be careful. From [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape#Reporting): > [@](#): > > The FBI’s 1996 Uniform Crime Report states that 8% of reports of forcible rape were determined to be unfounded upon investigation [20], but that percentage does not include cases where an accuser fails or refuses to cooperate in an investigation, or drops the charges. Here is a link to the PDF of the [1996 FBI Uniform Crime Report](http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/Cius_97/96CRIME/96crime2.pdf). > [@](#): > > As with all other Crime Index offenses, complaints of forcible rape made to law enforcement agencies are sometimes found to be false or baseless. In such cases, law enforcement agencies “unfound” the offenses and exclude them from crime counts. **The “unfounded” rate, or percentage of complaints determined through investigation to be false, is higher for forcible rape than for any other Index crime. Eight percent of forcible rape complaints in 1996 were “unfounded,” while the average for all Index crimes was 2 percent.** Regarding underreporting, [from Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape#Reporting) says that: > [@](#): > > According to the 1999 United States National Crime Victimization Survey, only 39% of rapes and sexual assaults were reported to law enforcement officials. For male rape, less than 10% are believed to be reported. The most common reasons given by victims for not reporting rapes are the belief that it is a personal or private matter, and that they fear reprisal from the assailant. Here is a link to the [statistical tables](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/cvusst.htm) from the Department of Justice, through 2002, and the [table index for rape](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/cvus/rape_sexual_assault.htm) and the table 91 on [reporting to police](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/cvus/reporting_to_police759.htm). There is a PDF file for 2003, that states that **only 38.5% of rapes are reported to police** , with 198,850 victimizations. There are also sub-categories for attempted rape and sexual assault, but that table doesn’t list the definitions for those terms. So basically in the United States, rape does have a higher false allegation rate compared to other crimes (8% versus 2%) - but according to the FBI is not nearly as high as your earlier cite of 50%. And the underreporting rate for rape has been fairly consistent with about 38-39% of cases being reported. ---
**Author:** ![Fat\_Chance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8baadc/32.png) [@Fat\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fat_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/577 "2006-04-20T16:38:49Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Interesting. > > [http://www.heraldsun.com/durham/4-726291.html](http://www.heraldsun.com/durham/4-726291.html) > > Bond for these two rapists was, of course, set at $400,000. Rape being eight times more serious than, um, murder, in the eyes of Durham prosecutors/judges. (Or, the risk of rapists fleeing being eight times greater). > > Yeah, there’s no politics at all going on here. Bail amounts are also based on the suspects ability to pay and risk of flight, etc. Its not just based on the crime. Since the kids are from very wealthy familes, the bail had to be higher in order to assure they show up at court. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/578 "2006-04-20T16:57:52Z")
> [@Waenara](#): > > Well, a 2% false allegation rate is probably too low, but I’ve been googling and haven’t found much to support your statement that the false allegation rate is 50% (from the one college study you cited). > > So basically in the United States, rape does have a higher false allegation rate compared to other crimes (8% versus 2%) - but according to the FBI is not nearly as high as your earlier cite of 50%. > > And the underreporting rate for rape has been fairly consistent with about 38-39% of cases being reported. The 50% study I mentioned was, indeed, only based on reports at college campuses, but I did think that had some relevance to this college allegation. While that one was frankly astonishing and troubling, the FBI numbers are not at all reassuring though lower. ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/579 "2006-04-20T17:26:39Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > The 50% study I mentioned was, indeed, only based on reports at college campuses, but I did think that had some relevance to this college allegation. While that one was frankly astonishing and troubling, the FBI numbers are not at all reassuring though lower. Well, I agree that I wouldn’t call it _reassuring_. 8% of men accused being falsely rape is unsettling, and it must be awful to be in that position. However, it does mean that 92% of accusations are truthful and not malicious. This _is_ reassuring to me. I don’t find it surprising that rape has a higher false allegation rate than, say, break and enter or larceny. Rape and accusations of rape pack a high emotional punch, so if a woman were malicious enough to want to falsely accuse a male of a crime, something shocking like incendiary like rape would be a good way to go. (Not really good of course, but “good” for her bad purposes). ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/580 "2006-04-20T17:28:41Z")
Please ignore all my typos/bad grammar in that post - I forgot to proofread. I meant to say “8% of men _being falsely accused of_ rape is unsettling…” and “…something shocking \*and \* incendiary like rape…” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153.md?page=30)