# Lying whore. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 10, 2006, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153 "2006-04-10T22:26:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/581 "2006-04-20T20:01:33Z")
Interesting.[ > [@](#): > > A $50,000 bond was set Wednesday for one of two teens accused in Durham’s first homicide of 2006, the March fatal shooting of 24-year-old Alvin Lee Jones. > > **Nicholas Alexander Mack, 17, previously had been held without bond in the case.** ]([http://www.heraldsun.com/durham/4-726291.html](http://www.heraldsun.com/durham/4-726291.html)) Nope, there’s no politics going on here, none at all. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/582 "2006-04-21T01:38:57Z")
Since this case involved college-age students, wouldn’t the 50% rate be more applicable than the national average? ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/583 "2006-04-21T02:22:38Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Since this case involved college-age students, wouldn’t the 50% rate be more applicable than the national average? Careful, you might get 4 pages of arguing that you are blindly focused on age to the exclusion of all other factors. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/584 "2006-04-21T03:48:20Z")
**Ellis** , for whatever reason, especially since the alibi stuff came out, that and the fact (?) that the “100% positive” ID was (seemingly) a “torso ID,” it’s been pretty quiet from those quarters, so maybe **athelas** is safe. ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/585 "2006-04-21T04:13:10Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > **Ellis** , for whatever reason, especially since the alibi stuff came out, that and the fact (?) that the “100% positive” ID was (seemingly) a “torso ID,” it’s been pretty quiet from those quarters, so maybe **athelas** is safe. Heh. I don’t know about that. 😉 Even if you accept that the 50% figure applies to all colleges (not just the one in the study), I don’t think you can draw the conclusion that it applies in this case. My main reason for thinking this is that the vast majority of rapes are acquaintance/date rates, or single stranger attackers. Only a small minority of rapes are gang rapes, as is alleged in this case. I’d be very surprised if the false accusation for individual rapes is the same as for gang rapes. Unfortunately, I don’t see that the FBI statistics I found earlier have any breakdown of the statistics regarding this. The reason I’d be surprised is that the reason for false allegations, from the author of that college study ([Dr. Kanin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape#Overreporting_and_false_reporting)) are: > [@](#): > > The complainants who made false allegations did so (by their own statements during recantation) for three major reasons: > > ``` > * providing an alibi; > * a means of gaining revenge; and/or > * a platform for seeking attention/sympathy. > > ``` I don’t think anyone’s alleging that the woman in this case was trying to get an alibi - there were plenty of witnesses to her being present at the party. Nor can I think of why she’d be seeking revenge - the names she originally gave as those who attacked her are not the same as those who were indicted, and I’d think if she was seeking revenge against someone she’d make sure they were accused. You can’t rule out the third motive (seeking attention/sympathy). I think all three motives would occur much more often in cases of single-attacker rape, and usually only the third in gang rapes. However, this is just my WAG, as I couldn’t find any statistics on the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/586 "2006-04-21T04:41:47Z")
> [@Waenara](#): > > I’d be very surprised if the false accusation for individual rapes is the same as for gang rapes. Unfortunately, I don’t see that the FBI statistics I found earlier have any breakdown of the statistics regarding this. They don’t and as someone (possibly you) pointed out my (much-behated) DOJ racial breakdowns don’t quite get us there on “reported interracial white on black gang rapes.” (Which may be because any such are so rare, but BTAIM). You could say false reports of gang rapes might be rarer because gang rapes are rarer. You could say the ratio of falsity would be higher because gang rape is such a lurid accusation that it’s uniquely appealing to the mind of a fabulist. Quien sabe? > [@](#): > > Nor can I think of why she’d be seeking revenge Oh, you and I are gaming this differently then. The defense _seems_ to be headed toward a theory that includes the notion that a beef arose between players and strippers (over payment, over the girl being wasted, over what sort of show the women were willing to do, over the fact the agency sent over black girls instead of white, for all I know). I do not know if that is definitely what they are going to allege, or if it is true, if so, but that’s the channel I was thinking in when I contemplated Kanin’s “revenge” bucket. On the other two, I agree with you: no. 3 (sympathy/attention) might be a possibility, no. 1 (alibi, which I assume you know basically means to Kanin “alibi for why she had illicit sex/pregnancy/VD,”) doesn’t really apply because, well, she’s a stripper, and she had no sperm on her so there’s no risk of pregnancy, etc. that she had to explain away to a boyfriend/husband as did some of the women in Kanin’s study. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/587 "2006-04-21T04:51:23Z")
> [@Waenara](#): > > Even if you accept that the 50% figure applies to all colleges (not just the one in the study), I don’t think you can draw the conclusion that it applies in this case. My main reason for thinking this is that the vast majority of rapes are acquaintance/date rates, or single stranger attackers. Only a small minority of rapes are gang rapes, as is alleged in this case. Isn’t this alleged incident an acquaintance rape? ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/588 "2006-04-21T05:07:26Z")
> [@Ellis Dee](#): > > Isn’t this alleged incident an acquaintance rape? Well, I guess it depends on how you define acquaintance - did she know any of the players prior to this? **Huerta88** previously questioned if, when they arranged to have a stripper at the party, they even knew she was black. I think acquaintance rape is generally someone that you previously knew. I wouldn’t think that her being in the house for only an hour is long enough to make the players “acquaintances.” (According to the timelines I’ve seen, she arrived at 11:30pm and when police came to the house at 12:55 no one was there anymore). ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/589 "2006-04-21T05:25:15Z")
> [@Waenara](#): > > Well, I guess it depends on how you define acquaintance - did she know any of the players prior to this? **Huerta88** previously questioned if, when they arranged to have a stripper at the party, they even knew she was black. > > I think acquaintance rape is generally someone that you previously knew. I wouldn’t think that her being in the house for only an hour is long enough to make the players “acquaintances.” (According to the timelines I’ve seen, she arrived at 11:30pm and when police came to the house at 12:55 no one was there anymore). I thought acquaintance rape was when one was raped by somebody they were willingly spending time with. As oppsoed to stranger rape, when some guy on the street grabs you seemingly at random. I don’t really know. How would it be classified if a guy slipped his blind date a rufie during dinner and raped her? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/590 "2006-04-21T12:49:25Z")
> [@Ellis Dee](#): > > I thought acquaintance rape was when one was raped by somebody they were willingly spending time with. As oppsoed to stranger rape, when some guy on the street grabs you seemingly at random. According to this [site](http://lmsurratt.tripod.com/section3.htm) acquaintance rape is defined as rape involving “anyone who is known to the survivor, anyone who is not a stranger”. In the alleged Duke rape, I wouldn’t call this acquaintance rape because there is no information out there suggesting that the woman knew the guys previous to her being hired. It seems as if she was only there on business, not socially. > [@](#): > > I don’t really know. How would it be classified if a guy slipped his blind date a rufie during dinner and raped her? According the site I linked to, that would be acquaintance rape. Probably because the interaction is a social one and not for-profit. ---
**Author:** ![Greathouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greathouse/32/2992_2.png) [@Greathouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greathouse)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/591 "2006-04-21T14:13:42Z")
[The second stripper has changed her story about who she believes.](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12415388/) > [@AP via MSNBC](#): > > Roberts, 31, was arrested on March 22 — eight days after the party — on a probation violation from a 2001 conviction for embezzling $25,000 from a photofinishing company in Durham where she was a payroll specialist, according to documents obtained by the AP. > > On Monday, the same day a grand jury indicted lacrosse players Reade Seligmann and Collin Finnerty, a judge agreed to a change so that Roberts would no longer have to pay a 15 percent fee to a bonding agent. District Attorney Mike Nifong signed a document saying he would not oppose the change. > > “It seems she is receiving very favorable financial treatment for what she is now saying,” Thomas said. Sounds fishy to me. > [@](#): > > The players’ attorneys have said their clients were angry and demanded a refund when the women stopped dancing, but Roberts disputed that. Sounds like the revenge angle others were speculating on. Of course I must state that I believe the players based on what I have heard so far. In the intrest of full disclosure, the quotes in the atricle are from the defense team. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/592 "2006-04-21T17:48:34Z")
The incident as described fits the definition of “Gang rape” which is distinctly different from either ‘stranger rape’ or ‘acquaintence rape’. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/593 "2006-04-21T19:07:02Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > The defense _seems_ to be headed toward a theory that includes the notion that a beef arose between players and strippers (over payment, over the girl being wasted, over what sort of show the women were willing to do, over the fact the agency sent over black girls instead of white, for all I know). Actually, at this point I’d lay cash that last is what happened. There was an argument, and someone dropped the N-bomb or made some other racist remark. A phony rape accusation was the response. Not that we’ll likely ever know for sure at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/594 "2006-04-21T19:54:46Z")
> [@Greathouse](#): > > Of course I must state that I believe the players based on what I have heard so far. In the intrest of full disclosure, the quotes in the atricle are from the defense team. Here’s a quote from the second stripper, from your link, concerning her communication with a PR firm– > [@](#): > > Also Thursday, 5W Public Relations, a New York firm that specializes in “crisis communication,” distributed an e-mail signed “The 2nd Dancer,” and Roberts confirmed she sent it after learning the AP knew her identity. > > “I’ve found myself in the center of one of the biggest stories in the country,” she wrote. “I’m worried about letting this opportunity pass me by without making the best of it and was wondering if you had any advice as to how to spin this to my advantage.” Here’ more about the email–[Cite.](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,192628,00.html) Here’s a story that suggests the fingernails were broken off before the time of the alleged rape. [Cite.](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,192404,00.html) ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/595 "2006-04-21T20:03:47Z")
A couple more quotes, from the second stripper, from **Greathouse** ’s link, [ > [@](#): > > … **Although she would not talk extensively about the party, she confirmed some of what the other dancer told police - including that the women initially left the party after one of the players threatened to sodomize the women with a broomstick.** > > The players’ attorneys have said their clients were angry and demanded a refund when the women stopped dancing, but Roberts disputed that. > > **"They ripped themselves off when they started hollering about a broomstick," she said** … ]([http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12415388/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12415388/)) CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/596 "2006-04-21T21:27:35Z")
More prosecutorial stupidity? You decide. The ID was based on a photo array comprised entirely of Duke lacrosse players. [Cite.](http://www.nbc17.com/news/8885627/detail.html) ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/597 "2006-04-21T21:34:10Z")
More prosecutorial stupidity? You decide. The ID was based on a photo array comprised entirely of Duke lacrosse players. [Cite.](http://www.nbc17.com/news/8885627/detail.html) ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/598 "2006-04-21T23:33:23Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > More prosecutorial stupidity? You decide. The ID was based on a photo array comprised entirely of Duke lacrosse players. [Cite.](http://www.nbc17.com/news/8885627/detail.html) So, in other words, she had a 100% chance of picking out a Duke lacrosse player. I was keeping an open mind, but there is now less than a 1% chance in my mind that a rape happened. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/599 "2006-04-21T23:38:05Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > More prosecutorial stupidity? You decide. The ID was based on a photo array comprised entirely of Duke lacrosse players. [Cite.](http://www.nbc17.com/news/8885627/detail.html) What [bad luck](http://www.bet.com/News/dukelacrose042106.htm??Referrer=%7B03CE5360-2620-42CB-AD7E-77E4249C5FB7%7D) that the two she picked happened to have pretty good evidence that they weren’t even there when the crime occured: “But defense attorneys say it couldn’t have gone down that way because they have time-stamped photos from the party, bank and cell phone records, and a taxi driver’s statement that put Seligmann and Finnerty away from the alleged crime scene.” ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2006, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/600 "2006-04-22T00:48:01Z")
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