# Lying whore. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 10, 2006, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153 "2006-04-10T22:26:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/121 "2006-04-12T12:55:45Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Several news accounts say he is running, and that one of his opponents is black. He’s running, but not for re-election. He was not elected in the first place, he was appointed. > [@Mister Falcon](#): > > Nobody here knows what happened that night. Nobody. > > So why is that Bababooey and Contrapuntal are so desperate to portray this woman as a lying black whore? It’s disgusting. Bite me. Point out anywhere I said she lied or shut the fuck up. Point anywhere I said she was a whore or shut the fuck up. I thought so. If these guys are guilty I hope they rot in jail. The DA has been trying this in the press and it has come around to bite him in the ass. He’s had a month. If he does not need the DNA evidence why has he not charged anyone? How do _you_ explain the contradictions in the first 911 call? How do _you_ explain the total lack of DNA matches? Why are you so willing to believe someone who has a criminal record for stealing a car, assaulting an officer, and DUI after stripping for the guy she stole the car from. If it turns out she fabricated these charges “lying whore” will be much to good for her. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/122 "2006-04-12T12:58:11Z")
> [@Trunk](#): > > In the report, she identified three of them by name. Adam, Bret and Matt. > > [The Smoking Gun: Public Documents, Mug Shots](http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0329061duke4.html) Hmmm. Mayhap (1) there were no guys by those names there or (2) there was other circumstantial evidence pointing away from any guys of that name, 'cause why else wouldn’t you just focus on those three? Let alone, why not go with the visual ID? We’re also (now) hearing a lot about how the lack of DNA could be explained because they used condoms. Which, one infers, she did not notice or report at the time, or the DA would not have been so optimistic (at first, before backpedaling) about the DNA tests. Certainly sex feels different for a man wearing a condom. I’ve never been on the other side of the equation, but I’ve had GFs comment that it feels different for them too. Apparently this one’s MV’d. Also, any statistics on how many gang-rapists (IRL) thoughtfully stop to practice safe sex? Just wondering . . . . ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/123 "2006-04-12T13:03:37Z")
> [@Mister Falcon](#): > > Nobody here knows what happened that night. Nobody. > > So why is that Bababooey and Contrapuntal are so desperate to portray this woman as a lying black whore? It’s disgusting. While I’m not sure that nothing untoward occured that night, the evidence (DNA as well as the 911 phone calls) seem to be considerably inconsistent with her story. (“Inconsistent with her story” = lie) I don’t stand behind the “whore” part, but if it does come out that she lied, I will think of a number of substitute words. And if it comes out that she didn’t lie, I’ll come out with some equally horrid substitute words for the guys that did it. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/124 "2006-04-12T13:05:23Z")
If I remember correctly, when this story broke, it was reported that there was considerable evidence that a rape did take place (regardless of whether these specific guys perpetrated it). Was it ever reported what that evidence was? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/125 "2006-04-12T13:10:47Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > We’re also (now) hearing a lot about how the lack of DNA could be explained because they used condoms. Which, one infers, she did not notice or report at the time, or the DA would not have been so optimistic (at first, before backpedaling) about the DNA tests. She also said she struggled, she was choked, she broke off her fingernails scratching at the rapists. For a half hour. Condoms or no, some DNA would exist, from skin under the nails, pubic hair, blood, etc… None such was found. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/126 "2006-04-12T13:11:06Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > If I remember correctly, when this story broke, it was reported that there was considerable evidence that a rape did take place (regardless of whether these specific guys perpetrated it). > > Was it ever reported what that evidence was? Not that I’ve seen. When one hears that she **showed up** at the party with bruises on her legs (as supposedly documented by photographic proof), one begins to suspect that those pre-existing injuries might have (wrongly) persuaded someone that she’d been battered . . . . ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/127 "2006-04-12T13:15:24Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > If I remember correctly, when this story broke, it was reported that there was considerable evidence that a rape did take place (regardless of whether these specific guys perpetrated it). > > Was it ever reported what that evidence was? This, in one form or another, is all that has been stated publically. > [@](#): > > The application filed by Durham police in getting a judge to order the lacrosse players to submit DNA tests said medical records and interviews with medical personnel “revealed the victim had signs, symptoms, and injuries consistent with being raped and sexually assaulted vaginally and anally. Furthermore, the SANE nurse stated the injuries and her behavior were consistent with a traumatic experience.” SANE is the acronym for sexual assault nurse examiner. [Link](http://www.herald-sun.com/durham/4-719410.html) ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/128 "2006-04-12T13:18:13Z")
> [@](#): > > **Huerta88** said: > Well, but the problem remains “apparently raped.” When will we (generically) decide that the “apparently” bar has been cleared? I hope it is not the moment a woman (or man) says “I was raped” – with nothing more… And if nobody ever lied when they said ‘I was raped.’ that would be enough. Unfortunately, that is not the case. False accusations happen, and so do wrongful convictions. Some men have been released from prison after years of incarceration for a crime that they never committed. Also remember that it doesn’t take a guilty verdict to effectively ruin a person’s life. His name and picture on the TV news and in the newspaper with the accusation is often enough to end a career, a marriage, and in at least one case led to suicide. > [@](#): > > **astro** said: > DA Plans To Proceed With Case Despite No DNA Matches I wonder how the DA is going to pick which three white men to prosecute? I was under the impression that the accuser had not identified any specific men, merely said that they were three white men. > [@](#): > > **crowmanyclouds** said: > How many rape cases depended on DNA, before DNA testing was possible? I also wonder how many of those convictions, nationwide, have been overturned based on DNA evidence because the convicted man was innocent? > [@](#): > > **Airman Doors, USAF** said: > Yeah, I didn’t think so either. These guys are home free. Unless of course you think about their future in lacrosse, academics, and the community. An accusation of rape has a way of never leaving. > [@](#): > > **lisacurl** said: > This is in an official police document available at The Smoking Gun, related to the charming email sent by lacrosse team member Ryan McFayden very shortly after the alleged attack, who said that he wanted to invite some strippers over to his room and “kill the bitches as soon as they walk in and cut their skin off” and yes, even worse things than that. What a fine upstanding young gentleman. Feeling that way is not a crime. Writing an email that says you feel that way is not a crime. It certainly seems reasonable to feel that way after being the target of a false rape accusation, knowing full well that it could end his academic career even if he’s not convicted. > [@](#): > > That document also shows that it was the Duke lacrosse team members who informed police that there were no gatecrashers at the party; only team members were present. I don’t like to make any assumptions, but consider that in a rape accusation, you have only two defenses: consent, or “it wasn’t me”. Actually there’s another possibility: nothing at all happened. There was no sex, consensual or otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/129 "2006-04-12T13:26:54Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > If I remember correctly, when this story broke, it was reported that there was considerable evidence that a rape did take place (regardless of whether these specific guys perpetrated it). > > Was it ever reported what that evidence was? Physical injuries consistent with rape–both vaginally and anally–was confirmed at Duke hospital where she was treated shortly after the alleged assault. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/130 "2006-04-12T13:30:21Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > We’re also (now) hearing a lot about how the lack of DNA could be explained because they used condoms. People keep saying there was no DNA. But there had to have been DNA found or they would not have sampled the men. The issue is that there have been no DNA matches, which is quite a different thing. The accuser also said a broomstick may have been involved. Broomsticks don’t ejaculate. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/131 "2006-04-12T13:33:06Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > And if nobody ever lied when they said ‘I was raped.’ that would be enough. Unfortunately, that is not the case. False accusations happen, and so do wrongful convictions. Some men have been released from prison after years of incarceration for a crime that they never committed. Also remember that it doesn’t take a guilty verdict to effectively ruin a person’s life. His name and picture on the TV news and in the newspaper with the accusation is often enough to end a career, a marriage, and in at least one case led to suicide. [http://www.falserape.net/false-rape.htm](http://www.falserape.net/false-rape.htm) The Kanin article appears to be from an academic journal. I found the below purported extracts online (I will attempt to verify, maybe I’ll buy the whole article, but the below fair-use quotes are I think of interest): > [@](#): > > ABSTRACT: > With the cooperation of the police agency of a small metropolitan community, 45 consecutive, disposed, false rape allegations covering a 9 year period were studied. These false rape allegations constitute 41% the total forcible rape cases (n= 109) reported during this period. These false allegations appear to serve three major functions for the complainants: providing an alibi, seeking revenge, and obtaining sympathy and attention. False rape allegations are not the consequence of a gender-linked aberration, as frequently claimed, but reflect impulsive and desperate efforts to cope with personal and social stress situations. > . . . > > METHODS > This investigation is essentially a case study of one police agency in a small metropolitan area (population = 70,000) in the Midwestern United States. This city was targeted for study because it offered an almost model laboratory for studying false rape allegations. First, its police agency is not inundated with serious felony cases and, therefore, has the freedom and the motivation to record and thoroughly pursue all rape complaints. In fact, agency policy forbids police officers to use their discretion in deciding whether to officially acknowledge a rape complaint, regardless how suspect that complaint may be. Second, the declaration of a false allegation follows a highly institutionalized procedure. The investigation of all rape complaints always involves a serious offer to polygraph the complainants and the suspects. Additionally, for a declaration of false charge to be made, the complainant must admit that no rape had occurred. She is the sole agent who can say that the rape charge is false. The police department will not declare a rape charge as false when the complainant, for whatever reason, fails to pursue the charge or cooperate on the case, regardless how much doubt the police may have regarding the validity of the charge. > > In short, these cases are declared false only because the complainant admitted they are false. Furthermore, only one person is then empowered to enter into the records a formal declaration that the charge is false, the officer in charge of records. Last, it should be noted that this department does not confuse reported rape attempts with completed rapes. Thus, the rape complainants referred to in this paper are for completed forcible rapes only. The foregoing leaves us with a certain confidence that cases declared false by this police agency are indeed a reasonable- if not a minimal reflection of false rape allegations made to this agency, especially when one considers that a finding of false allegation is totally dependent upon the recantation of the rape charge. > > We followed and investigated all false rape allegations from 1978 to 1987. A ranking police official notified us whenever a rape charge was declared false and provided us with the records of the case. In addition, the investigating officers provided any requested supplementary information so that we could be confident of the validity of the false rape allegation declarations. > > FINDINGS > > Regarding this study, 41% (n= 45) of the total disposed rape cases (n= 109) were officially declared false during this 9-year period, that is, by the complainant’s admission that no rape had occurred and the charge, therefore, was false. The incidence figure was variable from year to year and ranged from a low of 27% (3 out of 11 cases) to a high of 70% (7 out of 10 cases). The 9-year period suggests no trends, and no explanation has been made for the year-to-year fluctuation. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/132 "2006-04-12T13:35:17Z")
> [@you with the face](#): > > Physical injuries consistent with rape–both vaginally and anally–was confirmed at Duke hospital where she was treated shortly after the alleged assault. I’m just wondering how different evidence of vaginal and/or anal penetration looks from evidence of vaginal and/or anal rape (this is a question, not a statement). Because assuming she was raped, and assuming that it wasn’t these guys, then this story is even stranger. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/133 "2006-04-12T13:36:34Z")
> [@you with the face](#): > > People keep saying there was no DNA. But there had to have been DNA found or they would not have sampled the men. The issue is that there have been no DNA matches, which is quite a different thing. You do not know that. Unless I’ve missed something, no one has reported that they waited to see if any non-“victim” DNA was found on the “victim” before ordering the sampling. Do you have a cite to the contrary? As the DA appears to be out of control, I am not going to assume that this is so. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/134 "2006-04-12T13:39:58Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Because assuming she was raped, and assuming that it wasn’t these guys, then this story is even stranger. Why would we assume she was raped? The great majority (the overwhelming majority) of sexual acts in this country or anywhere are consensual. The purely-statistical odds are that if she had a sexual encounter of any kind that night, it was more likely of the consensual variety than the non-consensual variety. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/135 "2006-04-12T13:41:08Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > You do not know that. Unless I’ve missed something, no one has reported that they waited to see if any non-“victim” DNA was found on the “victim” before ordering the sampling. Do you have a cite to the contrary? As the DA appears to be out of control, I am not going to assume that this is so. I think what **you with the face** is saying that if they are saying that there is no DNA match, there has to be no DNA match to _something_. Obviously, if there was no DNA on the victim, then there was no reason to swab the alleged perpetrators in the first place, and it wouldn’t have had to wait a week to see if there was a match. If you are going to compare A to B, there has to be a B in the first place. But, yeah, I guess the DA might be something of an ass, and gone on a fishing expedition to see if these guys DNA matched up with anything in the system. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/136 "2006-04-12T13:42:23Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > I’m just wondering how different evidence of vaginal and/or anal penetration looks from evidence of vaginal and/or anal rape (this is a question, not a statement). I’m not a rape expert or a medical doctor, but I would think bruises, tears, bleeding and other signs of forced entry would be quite suggestive of rape as opposed to consensual penetration. But I don’t know how rigorous the criteria are in determining that an injury is consistent with rape. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/137 "2006-04-12T13:50:13Z")
> [@you with the face](#): > > People keep saying there was no DNA. But there had to have been DNA found or they would not have sampled the men. The issue is that there have been no DNA matches, which is quite a different thing. > > The accuser also said a broomstick may have been involved. Broomsticks don’t ejaculate. Did you read the link I provided? Their justification for the court order to retrieve DNA samples from the students was based on the report from the SANE nurse. Think about that. They were forced to give DNA samples _before_ any evidence linking them to a crime was discovered. (Even if their was a rape it could have happened before she got to the house. Or it could have been consensual rough sex.) _Before_ anyone was charged. (Which has yet to happen.) _Before_ any suspects were identified. This is bullshit, and possibly unconstitutionial bullshit. Imagine being at a party where a crime was alleged to have occurred and being ordered by the court to submit to DNA testing simply on the basis of your attendance. This DA is out of control. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/138 "2006-04-12T13:58:57Z")
[QUOTE=Fiveyearlurker] I think what **you with the face** is saying that if they are saying that there is no DNA match, there has to be no DNA match to _something_. Obviously, if there was no DNA on the victim, then there was no reason to swab the alleged perpetrators in the first place, and it wouldn’t have had to wait a week to see if there was a match. [QUOTE] I know that posters keep saying that. And **of course** it would be (IRL) somewhat illogical to order such invasive testing if there had been no (foreign, male) DNA **in fact proven to be on or in** the accuser. The only problem I have is that despite this being true and despite posters’ insistence that “they wouldn’t have ordered testing if there weren’t known to be some foreign DNA to match,” I have seen no evidence (I’ll gladly step down if there is some) that the DA did, in fact, wait until he had such evidence in hand. **Contrapuntal** suggests that this isn’t how it played out. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/139 "2006-04-12T14:00:13Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > You do not know that. Unless I’ve missed something, no one has reported that they waited to see if any non-“victim” DNA was found on the “victim” before ordering the sampling. Do you have a cite to the contrary? As the DA appears to be out of control, I am not going to assume that this is so. After digging around trying to find a cite, I concede that you have a point. But this leads me to ask why you are assuming that there was _no_ DNA found? All I see are reports that there were no matches with the accused, but I’ve seen nothing that states that no DNA was found. I find that hard to believe, seeing how the accused would have had to have sustained those injuries _somehow_–either consensually or nonconsensually–and DNA transfer is highly likely in either case. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153/140 "2006-04-12T14:11:25Z")
> [@you with the face](#): > > After digging around trying to find a cite, I concede that you have a point. But this leads me to ask why you are assuming that there was _no_ DNA found? All I see are reports that there were no matches with the accused, but I’ve seen nothing that states that no DNA was found. I find that hard to believe, seeing how the accused would have had to have sustained those injuries _somehow_–either consensually or nonconsensually–and DNA transfer is highly likely in either case. This should clear up the misunderstanding. [Link.](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/11/sports/othersports/11duke.html) From the article– > [@](#): > > DURHAM, N.C., April 10 — Results of DNA tests on 46 Duke lacrosse players were released Monday, and lawyers for the players said the tests failed to link them to the woman who accused three of them of raping her at an off-campus party last month. > > The lawyers said that none of the players’ DNA was found on the woman, on any of her clothing or possessions, or under artificial fingernails that were found by the police. They said the rape accusation was false and based on the testimony of the one woman, who is a 27-year-old college student, a mother of two and an exotic dancer. She had been hired to perform at an off-campus party held by members of the men’s lacrosse team on the night of March 13. > > The lawyers, who received the DNA results Monday afternoon, asked the Durham County district attorney to drop the case. “No DNA” means “No DNA linking the students to the crime.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lying-whore/352153.md?page=8)