But you have to understand how it correlates before you make any extrapolations, and that’s the why. It’s not enough to simply know that something correlates with something else, because you have to control for confounders before you can safely make your conclusions.
The jury is still out on that. I’m sure for some rapists it is a strictly a power thing, but there’s no way you can make a broad brush assertion that sexuality plays no role in it when there’s evidence that castration lowers rape recidivism.
My point about underreporting is not moot when it comes to the prudence of equating reported rates to occurence rates. Again, simple concept which flies over way too many heads.
All of those factors come down to the same things I have outlined previously : geographical, socio-cultural and/or familial relationships between assailants and victims. All of these things are also correlated with race. (Do I need a cite to prove that blacks are not evenly distributed throughout the mainstream population? Do I need cites to prove that interracial relationships between whites and blacks are not proprotionate to their numbers? If so, I’ll fetch some.)
What has the other side had to offer to support their use of race? Why should we assume that race is anymore relevant than any other differences between the accused and accuser? This question has not been addressed at all.
Stating this without explaining why this might be so implies that you think race is a determinant of rape. If you don’t think its a determinant (like I do), then hearing this stated this over and over again is as uncompelling as hearing someone say that rape perpetrated by people who listen to Pearl Jam against people who listen to MC Lyte is very, very rare. It’s like, so what? Can you please tell me what rape and has to do with race? Pretty please!
Quick question: What would prompt someone to go searching for racial crime data if not the pre-conceived belief that race determines behavior? That particular assumption is the given that I’m talking about.
So even the fact that the data has been collected is the proof that the person collecting the data had a racist agenda. And therefore the data is flawed.
The very sad thing here is that they haven’t learned a thing. Robbed of one racial grievance (the slavemaster-style rape) they are grasping at the straws of another (how dare you point out that there aren’t a lot of slavemaster-style rapes! I want to be slavemaster-style raped, and to be believed when I report it!).
I can now sadly guarandamtee that the Kool-Aid crowd here will react to the next implausible racially-charged inconsistent no-evidence gang rape allegation with exactly the same lack of critical faculties that the race-baiters, victimologists, and media applied to Tawana I and Tawana II, Electric Boogaloo.
There’s a lesson to be learned here, interesting questions of how we allocate our social and criminal justice concerns and credibility and the limited commodity of sympathy for real victims. They have absorbed not one iota of this lesson.
Some of you will recall that about sixty posts ago I formally apologized for the existence of the Department of Justice. I seriously think their statistics may have mentally fucked up at least one poster here beyond any hope of repair – there 's certainly a maniacal obsession with denying the statistics any legitimacy whatever (well, once she moved on from the baldfaced lie that she hadn’t even bothered to read them). SO I RETRACTED MY CITATION (I think in the course of doing so I also formally admitted to raping sixteen thousand pure-as-the-driven-snow black stripper virgins while saluting a portrait of Hitler, or something).
Because I didn’t need the statistics to support my skepticism about the DA’s crazed determination to indict so as to pander to the race hustlers, especially after other data points (entirely consistent with the statistical data point) began coming in.
Yet the madness continues.
When I back the wrong horse at the track, my inclination is to leave graciously. I guess others find value in damning the handicappers.
Facts? Statistics? Citations? Theories of the case that have proven more plausible or accurate than hers? Legal concepts beyond her understanding? Tons and tons of circumstantial-evidence based arguments and legal policy questions having absolutely nothing to do with race?
Speaking of assumptions, that’s it, isn’t it? Huerta has 88 in his name, ane we all know that 88 must = hh=heil Hitler=racist scum. You’re convinced that you’re diligently fighting against the racist agenda of a bigot. Couple that with the fact that you’re a black woman, undoubtedly you’ve been subjected to racist treatement in your life, so you likely identify with the victim in this case, and viola! We have someone arguing not from a factual or reasoned base, but from an emotional one. That’s always a poor starting point in a discussion such as this, which may be why you’re not making a lot of sense at times.
Personally, I don’t know if Huerta is a racist. Frankly, I don’t care. If he is, then he’s a moron. But that doesn’t change the way each of you has presented your arguements in this thread, and frankly he’s been more effective than you at doing that by an order of magnitude.
That’s an ad hominem argument. Argue the data. If the data supports what he’s saying, then who cares what his motivation was? And if the data does not support what he’s saying, then you have a better case to make by refuting the conclusions he’s invited you to draw.
The only reason to attack his “pre-conceived” belief is if you have nothing more substantial to argue.
You know, I was starting to think that we just see the debate from different mindset/points of view, but that at least we were both honestly trying to explain our positions. Now I think you’re moron.
We are not saying that this particular rape allegation is valid. At most, people at first called for withholding judgment until more facts come out. And now the facts show that it really looks like a very tenuous accusation, that was most likely fabricated…
However, the fact that this case is probably a false accusation does not mean that your bullshit statistical reasoning as to the plausibilty of the case is valid. The plausibility of this case is completely shot by the evidence (or lack thereof), not by the nation-wide occurence of interracial rape.
And saying that face “wants to be slavemaster-style raped” is just fucking disgusting, even for you. Yes, we’re in the Pit, but you’re still a hateful asshole.
She’s simply saying that rape mostly occurs in relationships were the perpetrator knows the accuser (often in marraige or dating), and as a black woman who has dated white men, she’d hope that if (god forbid) she was raped, that invalid armchair “statistical analysis” such as yours wouldn’t dismiss the allegation out of hand, or try to increase the burden of proof required to convict, just because her situation is rare.
I was subscribed to this thread and was following developments, but since these ridiculous statements by you have continued (5 or 10 pages back you accused us of being lesbian women’s studies students, just because we had the gall to disagree with you :rolleyes: ), I’ll just unsubscribe and move on to other threads that don’t cause me to strain my eyes from all the rolling.
I thought that piece of flattened road kill partially disembowelled by crows and left to rot at the road side was the prosecution case. Turns out it was your credibility. Go figure.
I was more or less discounting Huerta88’s assertion that you were disappointed at finding out that white-on-black rape was so rare as to be statistically insignificant.
That is not an ad hominem, honey. It’s a legitimate question. To review the bare bone facts of the case and then suggest that race signicantly changes things requires some underlying assumptions. What the hell are they, is what I want to know.
The data does not support what he is saying (for the 10^100 time), so there’s no need for me to challenge the data. I have no reason to question the data because it is irrelevant.
Not wrong.
Irrelevant.
Wrong =! irrelevant
Who has attacked his preconceived beliefs? I just asked what they might be, if not what I have already suggested. Sixteen pages into the thread and he has yet to explain his rationale for looking at race. I’m calling him on it.
Now why this sticks in your craw so much, I have no idea.
It’s unfortunate that Bricker and Weirddave so quickly jump down my throat for daring to question Huerta’s reasoning, while their friend over here gets away these “well argued” nuggets, unrebuked or unchallenged, with nary the slap on the wrist for the ad hominem that comprises the bulk of his responses to me.
I find it very disconcerting. As soon I even hint that Huerta has some racist ideas floating around in his head, everyone rushes to his defense, crying foul and bloody murder. But let the guy sit up here and suggest that my position comes from disappointment that my demographic group isn’t subject to “slavemaster-style” rape more often, and suddenly the gallery is silent.
But the funny thing is that neither one even attempted to refute the argument that I presented to Shodan.
No, I posted that I was beginning to believe his assertion (I didn’t previously), based on your posts. So the gallery wasn’t silent, we just think his assertion is fact-based. Yours is more obviously based on sheer desperation.
The notion that the bulk of Huerta88’s posts consist of ad hominem attacks is pretty silly. So it is probably best addressed by simply letting it lie there like the rhetorical turd it is.
Or perhaps it was already addressed, more than once, but for whatever reason you are unable or unwilling to notice.
Yes, you are right, Shodan. My position has nothing to do with combating ignorance when I see it, nothing to do with pointing out faulty reasoning. No, my position only reflects a deep-seated yearning to be raped master-style by white men. I hunger for that kind of treatment and I’m disappointed that it doesn’t happen to me and others like more often. I gnash my teeth.
[/sarcasm]
Why do I have a feeling some of you would like the above to be true? Talk about self-flattery! gag This thread is revealing some scary things about people that I previously thought were a lot better than this.
But please, by all means, continue to show your true colors. Its a spectacular display.
Did you think you were the first black person to start slinging accusations of “Racist!” when an argument was trending against her? Sorry, it has a long and not particularly honorable history.
The difficulty being, it never had much effect on me - white guilt is not a failing to which I was ever particularly subject. And as it seems to have appeared in your posts shortly after yet another Doper has pointed out some of the shortcomings in your line of reasoning, it has even less effect here.
It’s isn’t going to work anyway, and your timing makes it too transparent to be more than mildly amusing.
I mean, really. To characterize Huerta88’s argument as:
when he has stated the opposite, several times over, means merely that having failed in one line of argument, you are reaching rather desperately for another.
Although feel free to continue if you like. Part of the fun of the SDMB is watching people go ballistic as their asses get chewed off one bite at a time, rhetorically speaking.
Who has slung “racist!” at anyone? Find one post of mine where I’ve done this. And also tell me how the argument is “trending” against me. My rebuttal to your last (semi-rational) post stands unchallenged.
Shodan, your knee has jerked so high it’s somehow lodged itself into your ass. My audacity to suggest the Unthinkable (that a particular assumption is gasp! racist) hardly justifies attacking me as you and others have done. Your outrage is waaaaay out of proportion to anything that I said, which only makes me wonder why the points I’ve raised are so very discomforting that you have to go into Attack Mode so readily. That’s a sign of insecurity.
Why not refute my arguments on rational grounds, instead of lowering yourself to ad hominem? You tried to do that at first, but then you started acting like a 7th grader. Suggesting that I wish to be the recipient of “slavemaster-style” rape just because I dare to challenge Huerta’s premises and suggest they rest on racist foundations has gotta the most tasteless displays of intellectual cowardice that I’ve ever witnessed on this board.
It’s awful, dearie. But maybe not quite as awful as for the three men who have spent time in jail, and still yet face criminal charges, based on the incomprehensible allegations (and by incomprehensible, I mean a woman who allleges that twenty men, no, no men, no three men, one with a moustache, or rather, no moustache, raped her) of a woman who had sex with three other men on the day of the “assault.” Sorry this thread has upset you, hun bun.
I’d imagine this fact-pattern has upset the families of the lax players involved, at least a little bit.
Here, just let me do this. And seriously, I invite all to join (faux-Solomonic judgment-reservers included – after all, these boys are suspended from school and will go to trial and face many years in jail if the charges are not withdrawn).
Factually – gun to your head – no bullshit “wait and see” excuses:
Do you think the “rape” happened?
Or not?
Did you initially think it did, or that it probably, or likely, or maybe, did?
It’s pretty black and white. Either she lied, or they did.
Full disclosure: My answer is: “I thought it sounded kinda screwy when I first heard it but I reserved judgment.”
Now: Does your answer to this question have any effect on your view of how one should entertain lurid rape allegations, generically? If so, why so? If not, why not?