# Lynch. An American hero? C'mon!? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 6, 2003, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynch-an-american-hero-cmon/166948 "2003-04-06T23:44:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynch-an-american-hero-cmon/166948/61 "2003-04-07T12:59:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Actually, they are the bad guys, you know, fighting for a tyrant, using women and children as human shields, shooting POWs. \*\* Bit of a broad brush you’re using there, no? ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynch-an-american-hero-cmon/166948/62 "2003-04-07T13:00:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > Actually, they are the bad guys, you know, fighting for a tyrant, using women and children as human shields, shooting POWs. True but I have little problem in believing that some of them are doing brave heroic things as well. In much the same way as I’m sure soldiers fighting for the 3rd Reich did. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynch-an-american-hero-cmon/166948/63 "2003-04-07T13:18:46Z")
It’s obvious to me that having two broken legs, a broken arm and a fractured disk in her spine indicates either one severe beating (most likely being set upon by the fanatics after she ran out of bullets) or systematic torture. She had also not eaten in eight days. The man who called our attention to her did so after seeing her being slapped twice by a member of the Iraqi army. Her heroism lies not in being rescued, but in how she conducted herself during the battle and during her captivity. I’m certain that when those details emerge, she will have been seen by reasonable people to have earned the mantle of “hero”. To me, the fact that she is in the military, doing a job that needs to be done, is enough to earn my respect, potential heroism or not. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynch-an-american-hero-cmon/166948/64 "2003-04-07T13:23:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil One \* > Her heroism lies not in being rescued, but in how she conducted herself during the battle and during her captivity. I’m certain that when those details emerge, she will have been seen by reasonable people to have earned the mantle of “hero”. Well when those details emerge people will I’m sure people will. BTW how can you be certain of anything if the details haven’t emerged yet? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynch-an-american-hero-cmon/166948/65 "2003-04-07T13:29:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gary Kumquat \* > \*\*Bit of a broad brush you’re using there, no? \*\* Do you even read or watch the news? Those are tactics the Iraqi army employ as a regular program of terror. That “broad brush” crap gets really old. Jiminy, you sound like a Chinese character in the comic strip _Doonesbury_ trying to excuse the Cultural Revolution duing the trial of the Gang of Four:“Your honor, those were 3, 600, 472 unrelated acts of passion.” ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynch-an-american-hero-cmon/166948/66 "2003-04-07T13:36:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Klaatu \* > \*\*As was touched on upthread, the media during wartime loves symbols. Lynch, being a photogenic young female soldier is the perfect symbol to be a media darling. \*\* Firstly, from the facts as I understand, it Jessia Lynch was unquestionably heroic, as I imagine most of those that died with her were as well. Secondly, I agree with the “media darling” angle and it concerns me. It concerns me because I think the world did feel more shock, horror and concern when she was missing largely because she was young and female (and pretty). A big argument against females fighting on the front lines has been the theory that their male colleagues might be “distracted from fighting” in order to protect them. I don’t see that this necessarily happened in this case, but it does worry me that Jessica Lynch has been singled out for somewhat more attention than she might otherwise get because she is female (and young, and pretty, to a lesser extent). As I understand it, female soliders specifically don’t want extra attention, they want exactly the same respect and treatment that their male colleagues get. None of the extra or special attention is Lynch’s fault. She deserves a hero’s welcome, every bit of it. My concern is that her case - ie the media treatment of it - highlights the extra “icky” feeling many of us get over the fact that it is a _woman_ in enemy hands, a _woman_ being tortured/injured - and it is precisely this “icky” feeling, this “extra” concern that female soldier are trying to overcome in order to get equal opportunties on the front lines. I personally believe that woman should be able to fight on the front lines. And yes, I did get the extra “icky” feeling over Jessica Lynch, I did feel extra concern for her because she was female. And I feel that really I should be regarding all troops of all ages, genders, and backgrounds equally, and I should not be emotionally discriminating between them as my gut feeling did over Jessica Lynch. I should not feel it is any worse for a young woman to die than an older man, or a mother of two to die than a father of two. They are all soldiers, all fighters, all equal. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynch-an-american-hero-cmon/166948/67 "2003-04-07T13:51:41Z")
People have been speculating that she might be a candidate for the Medal of Honor. While I feel that she should get a Bronze Star & a Purple Heart, I Really don’t think this is ‘Medal of Honor’ worthy. And I don’t give a Damn how much she looks like Meg Ryan in ‘Courage Under Fire’… (the Other elephant in the room) ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynch-an-american-hero-cmon/166948/68 "2003-04-07T14:02:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Do you even read or watch the news? Those are tactics the Iraqi army employ as a regular program of terror. That “broad brush” crap gets really old. Jiminy, you sound like a Chinese character in the comic strip _Doonesbury_ trying to excuse the Cultural Revolution duing the trial of the Gang of Four:“Your honor, those were 3, 600, 472 unrelated acts of passion.” \*\* You know, I really wasn’t expecting quite such an angry response from you, especially to such an innocuous comment. The “broad brush” remark was to point out that the vast bulk of the Iraqi army would just be standards squaddies, just as for every other army. I’d imagine that a lot of them do view themselves as defending their homeland, from what will have been portrayed to them as an unwarranted act of aggresion. I also would argue that “they are the bad guys, you know, fighting for a tyrant, using women and children as human shields, shooting POWs.” is a vastly sweeping statement that has no application to the vast percentage of Iraq’s soldiers. You honestly think their armies are full of tyrant supporting villains pushing women and children in front of them? ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynch-an-american-hero-cmon/166948/69 "2003-04-07T14:02:09Z")
Now the Today show is doing a special segment honoring the first female to be killed over there during this conflict. If females want equal treatment then they need to fight back against shit like this. It is this type of treatment by the media that builds the wall. How many other troops have been killed so far in combat without so much as there names being mentioned on TV? And this girl gets killed and gets an entire segment telling me how great she was and heroic? My condolences go out to her family and it is sad that she died, but no more sad than the other guys who have already died over there. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynch-an-american-hero-cmon/166948/70 "2003-04-07T14:08:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sue Duhnym \* > \*\*I’m not so lazy after all. No gunshot wounds. > > Still, what’s up with all the fractures? \*\* I can think of ten thousand ways it could have happened: - The vehicle she was riding in crashed as a result of being shot up (the ebst bet) - She was taking cover behind a vehicle and it was hit by an RPG and turned over on her - The concussion from a rocket or a grenade threw her over an embankment Combat does that sort of thing. I would assume nothing until objective evidence is presented. Almost EVERY story from the front so far has turned out to be heavily at odds with the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Jervoise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d2c977/32.png) [@Jervoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jervoise)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynch-an-american-hero-cmon/166948/71 "2003-04-07T14:28:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Do you even read or watch the news? Those are tactics the Iraqi army employ as a regular program of terror. That “broad brush” crap gets really old. Jiminy, you sound like a Chinese character in the comic strip _Doonesbury_ trying to excuse the Cultural Revolution duing the trial of the Gang of Four:“Your honor, those were 3, 600, 472 unrelated acts of passion.” \*\* I wouldn’t consider Iraqi soldiers in general to be evil tyrant-supporting, human shield-pushing, POW-executing bad guys any more than I’d consider American soliders in general to be [incompetent](http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/03/31/1048962677977.html), [negligent](http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/03/31/1048962677977.html) [cowboys](http://www.channel4.com/news/2003/03/week_4/31_friendfire.html). That is to say, not at all. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynch-an-american-hero-cmon/166948/72 "2003-04-07T14:36:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gary Kumquat \* > You know, I really wasn’t expecting quite such an angry response from you, especially to such an innocuous comment. I apologize for my flash of temper; it’s just that the broad brush gets trotted out so often by the SDMB moral relativists (not that I’m counting you in that number) to excuse collective wrongdoing. [quote] The “broad brush” remark was to point out that the vast bulk of the Iraqi army would just be standards squaddies, just as for every other army. I’d imagine that a lot of them do view themselves as defending their homeland, from what will have been portrayed to them as an unwarranted act of aggresion. [quote] “Up to a point, my lord.” > [@](#): > > I also would argue that “they are the bad guys, you know, fighting for a tyrant, using women and children as human shields, shooting POWs.” is a vastly sweeping statement that has no application to the vast percentage of Iraq’s soldiers. You honestly think their armies are full of tyrant supporting villains pushing women and children in front of them? Why in earth do you think it has no appiclation to the majority of Iraq’s soldiers? For 20 years–from the start of the Iraq-Iran war through the Gulf War to the present conflict–we’ve seen that the Iraqi army murders civilians, uses woman and children as human shields, uses gas warfare, and has committed many other atrocities as a regular matter of course. Now you can argue that the common Iraqi soldiers had to obey orders or be shot, but that’s doesn’t have anything to do with the nature of the war crimes they have committed. ---
**Author:** ![THespos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@THespos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/THespos)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynch-an-american-hero-cmon/166948/73 "2003-04-07T14:50:31Z")
Used to be that one would become a public figure for being a hero. These days, it appears that it’s the other way around. I’m not saying that I don’t have respect for Ms. Lynch’s service to our country, but I don’t think she deserves special recognition, above and beyond that afforded to her comrades. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynch-an-american-hero-cmon/166948/74 "2003-04-07T14:57:42Z")
> [@](#): > > If it was a guy in that hospital, no one would be questioning his hero status. If that was a guy in the hospital, he wouldn’t be on television. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynch-an-american-hero-cmon/166948/75 "2003-04-07T15:40:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*If that was a guy in the hospital, he wouldn’t be on television. \*\* I’m inclined to agree. “A guy in uniform, with a gun, albeit not a front-line combatant, was involved in a firefight when his unit was attacked by the enemy. He fought on as long as he had ammunition, for the very good and sufficient reason that this seemed to be the best way to stop the enemy from doing unto him, as well as being terrified at the thought of what would happen to him if the enemy captured him. He was, however, captured and taken PoW, until having the good luck to be rescued.” We’d say: Good luck to him, then. He did what he was trained and paid for and we can be thankful for the rescue. As it’s customary for Americans to receive Purple Hearts for being wounded in their country’s service\*, let’s give him one. But what earthly reason do we have for making him a national hero? (\*Admission: Yes, this is **Mal** in crusty-Brit mode. However, I grant that other armed forces have also handed out wound badges and so on, as well - it’s not a uniquely American peculiarity.) ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynch-an-american-hero-cmon/166948/76 "2003-04-07T15:51:25Z")
I am eagerly awaiting further info on this but, **HELL YES, SHE’S A HERO** As mentioned, you have to remember she is 19 years old. I don’t think at 19 I would have the mettle to still be alive and sane. And to think she wasn’t tortured, what-the-fuck-ever! You might want to wonder why her collegues’ bodies were found…yet she’s still around, either she stood up to torture and had not yet died or they were keeping a cute, 19 year-old female around for something that they didn’t want her collegues for. Any guesses? ---
**Author:** ![king\_of\_spain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7cd45c/32.png) [@king\_of\_spain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/king_of_spain)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynch-an-american-hero-cmon/166948/77 "2003-04-07T19:59:49Z")
> [@](#): > > If anyone had _extra_ risk in that battle, it’s her - above and beyond the risk of beating, torture, and death, she had the added danger of not knowing if she’d be raped by her captors. Can you honestly say that you would passively accept capture knowing there was a distinct possibility that strange, unwashed men with guns might want to stick their schlongs into you and share bodily fluids? The Hussein regime has a history of using rape as a method of oppression, so I’d consider it a very real danger as a female POW. Knowing that, I’d be freaking Rambo too!\*\* As though male prisoners of war never get raped. :rolleyes: Rape is a distinct danger facing any POW in a country like Iraq and other oppressive regimes that use torture. ---
**Author:** ![Demise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@Demise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demise)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynch-an-american-hero-cmon/166948/78 "2003-04-07T20:35:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sue Duhnym \* > \*\*I’m not so lazy after all. No gunshot wounds. > > Still, what’s up with all the fractures? \*\* Actually, it looks like [she was shot](http://www.msnbc.com/news/896296.asp?0cl=c1): > [@](#): > > And amid the joy there were unsettling questions about Lynch’s condition and her treatment in captivity. Her injuries included fractures to both legs, her right arm and spine, and after undergoing several operations last week she developed a fever that reached 104. Exactly how she was injured, though, remained a mystery; the commander of the hospital in Landstuhl, Germany, told reporters on Friday that “she was not stabbed; she was not shot.” Later that day, though, surgeons discovered that she had been shot—and, according to a family spokesman in West Virginia, Dan Little, her wounds were “consistent with low-velocity small arms.” The unpleasant implication was that she might have been shot after she’d been captured, rather than wounded in combat. The mystery grew when CNN reported that Marines searching the home of a Baath Party official in An Nasiriya had discovered Lynch’s dog tag. Low-velocity, say .32 or .380, rounds can break bones easily, without the messiness of large exit wounds. I’ve read claims that Iraqi torturers have used this method in the past, but I have no idea how accurate that information is. ---
**Author:** ![lisacurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/41988e/32.png) [@lisacurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisacurl)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynch-an-american-hero-cmon/166948/79 "2003-04-07T20:58:08Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Morrigoon_ > If anyone had _extra_ risk in that battle, it’s her - above and beyond the risk of beating, torture, and death, she had the added danger of not knowing if she’d be raped by her captors. Can you honestly say that you would passively accept capture knowing there was a distinct possibility that strange, unwashed men with guns might want to stick their schlongs into you and share bodily fluids? The Hussein regime has a history of using rape as a method of oppression, so I’d consider it a very real danger as a female POW. Knowing that, I’d be freaking Rambo too! That statement is infuriatingly ignorant. How is rape worse than any other type of torture? Even if you subscribe to that Victorian attitude, on what planet are males exempt from it? Do a bit of research on Lawrence of Arabia. Hell, do a bit of research on modern methods of torture. Considering the plethora of stomach-churning ways that humans have invented of making each other pray for death, rape isn’t even in the top ten. What is debilitating - not just to female soldiers but to all women - is the FEAR of rape, the idea that it is the “fate worse than death.” I can’t speak for PFC Lynch, but I damn sure would have traded off being raped for having a serious spinal cord injury. You can recover from being raped. That being said, I think it will be a long time before we know what really happened when the 501st Maintenance Division was ambushed. We may not ever know the real story, because - as Mr. Amanita pointed out last night - the making of the Myth of Jessica Lynch has already begun. I’ve seen reports that entertainment types are already trying to contact her family for rights to the story. I don’t doubt that the reason we’re seeing this story is because Lynch is a pretty, white, young, _female_ soldier, who is now safe. The networks can’t do specials about the other POWs because there’s no Hollywood Ending yet. Hell, Lynch was raised in the hollers of West Virginia and wants to be a kindergarten teacher. That’s practically as good as being born in a manger. In short, we’re having this story shoved down our throats because the Powers That Be can sell it. It’s specatularly good PR. ---
**Author:** ![Cavalier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/97f17d/32.png) [@Cavalier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cavalier)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynch-an-american-hero-cmon/166948/80 "2003-04-07T21:22:23Z")
The Iraqis are the real heroes, doing everything they can to try to defend their country against an overwhelmingly superior force. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle\_east/2924129.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2924129.stm) The battle was fierce and God granted his soldiers victory. He granted heroic Iraqis victory. I salute the soldiers and I salute the Baathists, the heroes. I don’t think this soldier’s a hero. She was doing her job, that’s all. She was nineteen, but [Private Ruben Estrella-Soto, 18, and Pvt Brandon U Sloan, 19](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2919961.stm), two of the dead soldiers found with her were young too. If she’s a hero so are the other POWs, including the other, less attractive, female POWs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynch-an-american-hero-cmon/166948.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynch-an-american-hero-cmon/166948.md?page=5)