# Lynndie England, you make me sick to my stomach **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 3, 2004, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynndie-england-you-make-me-sick-to-my-stomach/258217 "2004-08-03T23:33:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BoBettie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4af34b/32.png) [@BoBettie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BoBettie)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynndie-england-you-make-me-sick-to-my-stomach/258217/21 "2004-08-04T01:59:58Z")
I hope this doesn’t sound too stupid, but what would have happened to her if she had said “no” when allegedly told to pose for these pictures or participate in the torture of prisoners? How would that have worked? Would she have been disciplined? Is there a way to anonymously report this kind of thing or let someone know that you’re being ordered to do something against the Geneva Conventions? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynndie-england-you-make-me-sick-to-my-stomach/258217/22 "2004-08-04T02:03:19Z")
> [@E72521](#): > > Her boyfriend civilian prison guard has an equal amount of POW training. > . Sorry, but bein a Civilian Prison guard means hes had sufficient trainin to know you dont strip your prisoners pose em in sexual positions and take pics w/your friends. and both had basic military training which includes the Military code of conduct, which would have prohibited their conduct. Neither deserves a pass IMHO ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynndie-england-you-make-me-sick-to-my-stomach/258217/23 "2004-08-04T02:26:46Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > But, if I joined the military because I wanted to help my country, was taught that the best way to help my country was to follow orders, was told that I’d be liberating a grateful country and instead found out that I was hated and despised, was given a great deal of authority over the very people who despised me–hell, they’re probably in the prison for trying to kill people like me!–and thought that helping the intelligence officers would stop attacks on my family back home? Well, I don’t know what I’d do then. I’d like to think I’d be a courageous whistle blower, but I likely wouldn’t be. What a load of crap. Most of the prisoners in question were there because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. They hadn’t been trying to kill anyone at all. Let alone US troops. Unless the military kept the personnel in Abu Ghraib totally in the dark, in which case they really should have asked a couple of questions. She is a twit. Those who played along with her posed nonsense are just as bad, and if it comes to light that orders came from anywhere, military or private, then I hope like hell that the heaviest, largest of books will be thrown at them. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynndie-england-you-make-me-sick-to-my-stomach/258217/24 "2004-08-04T02:37:26Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#): > > Instead of someone whose best defense is “it was all in fun.” That sure as hell doesn’t sound to me like someone who was pressured to do what she did out of fear for her life and her family’s life. You have this a little backward. It wasn’t England who said today that “it was all in fun.” It was a [**witness for the prosecution** :](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=3&u=/ap/20040804/ap_on_re_us/prisoner_abuse_england) > [@](#): > > An Army investigator, Paul Arthur, testified that when he interviewed England about the photos three months before they became public, she told him they were taken while “they were joking around, having some fun, during the night shift.” No doubt England’s testimony will be something along the lines of “I was coerced into following illegal orders.” It’s up to the court to decide whose claims are closer to the truth. Both sides certainly have powerful motives for lying, so there’s no call to go condemning England on the basis of the very first day of testimony. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynndie-england-you-make-me-sick-to-my-stomach/258217/25 "2004-08-04T02:53:41Z")
> [@GLWasteful](#): > > What a load of crap. Most of the prisoners in question were there because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. They hadn’t been trying to kill anyone at all. Let alone US troops. You know that, I know that, I’m not so sure the guards knew that. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynndie-england-you-make-me-sick-to-my-stomach/258217/26 "2004-08-04T03:17:55Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#): > > But fear and hatred don’t excuse barbaric behavior; they don’t even explain it. I’m not saying her behaviour is “excusable.” In my second sentence in this thread I said she should be punished. I _do_ think that fear and hatred can explain barbaric behaviour, in the sense that fear and hatred often motivate such behaviour. Please–I never said Lynd did nothing wrong, only that I didn’t think she was a monster. > [@SolGrundy](#): > > The best you’ve able to come up with makes it sound like it was done out of revenge. If you truly believe in what you’re fighting for, then you are able to recognize that debasing and humiliating other people isn’t it. I wasn’t trying to argue Lynd’s case in particular, I was trying to argue that the circumstances over there can create a situation where, to someone who’s a participant and not an observer, it seems like degrading prisoners isn’t _that_ bad. Couple the sense of helping your country (“They’ll get more information out of them, which will save lives!”) with fear and hatred (“And besides, they’re scum!”) and I think situations like this _can_ be explained (though not excused). > [@SolGrundy](#): > > I think you’d be better off saving your empathy for someone who deserves it. Instead of someone whose best defense is “it was all in fun.” That sure as hell doesn’t sound to me like someone who was pressured to do what she did out of fear for her life and her family’s life. I like to distinguish between empathy and sympathy. I understand empathy to be understanding anothers position, and sympathy to be empathy coupled with a high level of support or agreement. I don’t think empathy, i.e., trying to understand someone else’s position, should ever be withheld because you think someone evil. If you do, it makes it that much easier to slap on the electrodes and point your thumb at their nads… ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynndie-england-you-make-me-sick-to-my-stomach/258217/27 "2004-08-04T03:22:55Z")
**Metacom** any idea how many of the guards **didn’t** participate? there’s what 6, 8? being charged? lots more were there. ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynndie-england-you-make-me-sick-to-my-stomach/258217/28 "2004-08-04T03:27:19Z")
First, what PFC England appears to have done is reprehensible and, if convicted, she is diserving of appropriate military punishment. Second, I believe that people up to the very highest levels of the chain of command were responsible for creating the conditions that led to the abuses committed by PFC England and others. I have not, however, seen any evidence that the higher leadership authorized or condoned the particular abuses that have been reported. What I do not understand is why there has been no focus on the culpability of the junior officers directly responsible for the supervison of PFC England and her colleauges. Although I do not condone what she has been accused of, I can understand how a young soldier in a difficult and toxic environment can cross the line. However, where I see a significant amount of fault is in the the platoon and company officers that permitted that difficult and toxic environment to spin out of control. I cannot see how we are prosecuting the PFCs and SPCs who did these things without calling to account the Captains, Lieutenants and senior NCOs that did nothing to prevent these atriocities. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynndie-england-you-make-me-sick-to-my-stomach/258217/29 "2004-08-04T03:30:23Z")
I find it impossible to get worked up over Lynndie England in particular, because she is so obviously a patsy. Torture, rape and murder are de rigeur at U.S. prison camps in Iraq, it’s quite obvious it’s been okayed from on high, and the big public trial is this England idiot who posed for some pictures? This trial is a snow job; the plan is to convict her and punish her, then just drop the whole matter. Within months the general public will remember that “something was done, there was a trial or something” and the horrors can be resumed. ---
**Author:** ![nonpolar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3da27b/32.png) [@nonpolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nonpolar)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynndie-england-you-make-me-sick-to-my-stomach/258217/30 "2004-08-04T03:32:23Z")
She is in some strange way kind of cute. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynndie-england-you-make-me-sick-to-my-stomach/258217/31 "2004-08-04T03:40:24Z")
> [@wring](#): > > **Metacom** any idea how many of the guards **didn’t** participate? there’s what 6, 8? being charged? lots more were there. I don’t know. I’d like to, though. I’d be even more interested in knowing how many knew and did nothing about it–I think they deserve to be court martialed too. The welfare of those inmates was their duty. Given how the photos were distributed, and that this involved so many guards and occured in relatively public areas of the prison, I’m afraid this number may be rather high… ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynndie-england-you-make-me-sick-to-my-stomach/258217/32 "2004-08-04T03:59:42Z")
> [@nonpolar](#): > > She is in some strange way kind of cute. So that’s what a Cockausian woman looks like! ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynndie-england-you-make-me-sick-to-my-stomach/258217/33 "2004-08-04T04:58:14Z")
Rumsfeld has left Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller–the guy who recommended the “techniques for softening up the prisoners” in charge of the prison. So what’s really going to change? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynndie-england-you-make-me-sick-to-my-stomach/258217/34 "2004-08-04T05:04:28Z")
> [@](#): > > I have not, however, seen any evidence that the higher leadership authorized or condoned the particular abuses that have been reported. From the left-wing, knee-jerk liberal, pinko, commie, fellow-traveler organization, [Military.com](http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,FL_bush_062304,00.html): > [@](#): > > Rumsfeld’s Nov. 27, 2002, memo approved several methods which apparently would violate Geneva Convention rules, including: > > -Putting detainees in “stress positions,” such as standing, for up to four hours. > > -Removing prisoners’ clothes. > > -Intimidating detainees with dogs. > > -Interrogating prisoners for 20 hours at a time. > > -Forcing prisoners to wear hoods during interrogations and transportation. > > -Shaving detainees’ heads and beards. > > -Using “mild, non-injurious physical contact,” such as poking. > > Prisoners at Abu Ghraib were interrogated for as long as 20 hours at a time, kept hooded and naked, intimidated with dogs and forcibly shaved. Bush and other administration officials have said other treatment at the Iraqi prison, such as forcing prisoners to perform sex acts, beating them and piling them in a naked human pyramid, were unquestionably illegal. Rumsfeld later rescinded the order, although his approval was in effect at the time of the “irregularities” currently under investigation. > [@](#): > > . . . Rumsfeld acknowledged . . . that he ordered a suspected terrorist to be secretly held in Iraq without notifying the International Committee of the Red Cross, which is a violation of the Geneva Conventions. Rumsfeld said he approved an unspecified number of other, similar secret detentions. And the intent, motive, or prompting for these events does not seem to have originated as low in the chain of command as Rumsfeld: > [@](#): > > An Aug. 1, 2002, Justice Department memo argues that torture - and even deliberate killing - of prisoners in the terror war could be justified as necessary to protect the United States. The memo from then-assistant attorney general Jay Bybee also offers a restricted definition of torture, saying only actions that cause severe pain akin to organ failure would be torture. > > Bybee is now a justice on the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. (That last point gives me a wonderful feeling about Bush-influenced jurisprudence) > [@](#): > > For example, a 2002 order signed by Bush says the president reserves the right to suspend the Geneva Conventions on treatment of prisoners of war at any time. > [@](#): > > Bush had agreed in February 2002 that al-Qaida and Taliban prisoners at Guantanamo Bay were not protected by the Geneva Conventions on prisoners of war because they violated the laws of war themselves. > > Bush’s previously secret Feb. 7, 2002, order also agrees with Justice and Pentagon lawyers that **a president can ignore U.S. law and treaties**. > > “I accept the legal conclusion of the Attorney General and the Department of Justice that I have the authority to suspend Geneva (conventions) as between the United States and Afghanistan,” Bush wrote. “I reserve the right to exercise this authority in this or future conflicts.” **bolding mine** By this specious logic, when Hussein is brought to trial, he should simply declare that he had the authority, as head of state, to “suspend” various international laws that might have interfered with his running of the country of Iraq, citing his fellow head of state, G W Bush, who has decided that he can ignore the laws of his own country and has violated the UN charter by invading a country that was not attacking (nor threatening to attack) the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynndie-england-you-make-me-sick-to-my-stomach/258217/35 "2004-08-04T05:09:52Z")
Nixon said something like, “If the president does it, then it’s not against the law.” ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynndie-england-you-make-me-sick-to-my-stomach/258217/36 "2004-08-04T06:06:58Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Rumsfeld later rescinded the order, although his approval was in effect at the time of the “irregularities” currently under investigation. > [@](#): > > The prosecution says it may call as many as 25 witnesses. > > England will also call witnesses. Defense lawyers’ requests to subpoena Vice President Dick Cheney and Defense Secretary **Donald Rumsfeld** to the witness stand were denied. [here](http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/26232.htm) ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynndie-england-you-make-me-sick-to-my-stomach/258217/37 "2004-08-04T06:35:48Z")
> [@Zette](#): > > I hope this doesn’t sound too stupid, but what would have happened to her if she had said “no” when allegedly told to pose for these pictures or participate in the torture of prisoners? How would that have worked? Would she have been disciplined? Is there a way to anonymously report this kind of thing or let someone know that you’re being ordered to do something against the Geneva Conventions? I’m curious about this, too. What if she refused her orders? ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynndie-england-you-make-me-sick-to-my-stomach/258217/38 "2004-08-04T07:10:11Z")
> [@Jodi](#): > > If there was a way to apologize to those poor men, to the country of Iraq, to the whole Arab world, to the whole _world_, I would do it. Of course there’s a way. Pay close attention to [tomndebb’s post #34](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5133156&postcount=34), and then on November 2nd, send a loud and clear message to the world, and especially the Arab nations, that you will not support an administration that would condone and encourage this type of contemptible treatment of human beings anywhere on the planet, and cast your for John Kerry. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynndie-england-you-make-me-sick-to-my-stomach/258217/39 "2004-08-04T07:14:56Z")
Best propaganda for American style democracy possible. “Well, when our Maximum Leader is full of shit, we can chuck his ass out. Kinda messy sometimes, but beats the crap out of what _you_ got, no?” ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynndie-england-you-make-me-sick-to-my-stomach/258217/40 "2004-08-04T08:03:23Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > You have this a little backward. It wasn’t England who said today that “it was all in fun.” It was a [**witness for the prosecution** :](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=3&u=/ap/20040804/ap_on_re_us/prisoner_abuse_england) No doubt England’s testimony will be something along the lines of “I was coerced into following illegal orders.” It’s up to the court to decide whose claims are closer to the truth. Both sides certainly have powerful motives for lying, so there’s no call to go condemning England on the basis of the very first day of testimony. No, according to the CNN article quoted in the OP, it was a second-hand quote from England herself: > [@](#): > > The opening witness was special agent Paul Arthur, the military investigator who first questioned England about photos showing her with naked Iraqi detainees in Abu Ghraib prison. > > Arthur testified **England told him** that “it was just for fun.” > > “They didn’t think it was that serious. … They didn’t think it was that big a deal. They were joking around,” Arthur said England told him. (bolding mine) And I’m fine with condemning England just on the basis on the photos I’ve seen, thanks. Unless she can say it’s the best Photoshop job that’s ever been done. My whole point of arguing in this thread is that whatever is going on at higher levels is a separate issue – a very _important_ issue, don’t get me wrong – but that it does nothing to absolve England of blame. As unconscionable as it would be to have lower-ranking officers take _all_ of the blame in this situation, it’s just as bad to have everyone get to the point of saying, “Well, I was only following orders” and lay all the blame on the executives. That creates an environment where people feel powerless to do anything, and think that just by voting out the current administration, everything will be fine. It all comes down to individual people and individual decisions. > [@Metacom](#): > > I’m not saying her behaviour is “excusable.” In my second sentence in this thread I said she should be punished. I do think that fear and hatred can explain barbaric behaviour, in the sense that fear and hatred often motivate such behaviour. Please–I never said Lynd did nothing wrong, only that I didn’t think she was a monster. Right, you didn’t say it was excusable, and I never meant to imply that it did. But what I’m objecting to is the idea that it’s England’s superiors who are the “real villains” in this case. There’s no doubt that there is a chain of command who was aware of and guilty of the stuff that went on in the prison – much more capable posters than I have already provided evidence here. But I think it’s dangerous to act as if _anyone_ is capable of the same actions if she were put in the same situation. It’s defeatist, and it perpetuates the idea that we’re all just automatons working at the whim of a corrupt administration. Every person has the power to decide what’s right and what’s wrong, and to act on it. Even if she is a redneck. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynndie-england-you-make-me-sick-to-my-stomach/258217.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynndie-england-you-make-me-sick-to-my-stomach/258217.md?page=3)