# Lynne Stewart and Ashcroft's Burning of the Constitution **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 15, 2002, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynne-stewart-and-ashcrofts-burning-of-the-constitution/128531 "2002-09-15T08:12:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2002, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynne-stewart-and-ashcrofts-burning-of-the-constitution/128531/1 "2002-09-15T08:12:49Z")
I was surprised to discover that this topic had never been mentioned here. Lynne Stewart is a radical leftist defense attorney. Sometimes she defends right-wingers, as in the case of Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. The Sheikh was convicted of participating in the 1993 WTC bombing and is in prison. I’ll assume that we’re all united in our belief that this guy is a jerk. But he does have a Constitutional right to council, though apparently Ashcroft would like to take that away. Stewart was arrested and indicted this year for providing material support to a foreign terrorist organization. What did she do? Take up arms for the Taliban? (John Walker Lindh was charged with the same crime.) Did she smuggle arms? What she did was release a press statement to the public, which contained an opinion of her client on the political situation in Egypt. They justify calling her actions a crime because they violated the Bureau of Prisons’ “Special Administrative Measures” (SAM). The purpose of SAM is to inhibit a lawyer’s communications with her client. One funny thing is that the regulation that prohibits an inmate from communicating with the media through his attorney came into effect on April 7, 1999, and the indictment claims she committed this act on or about March 1999. I guess our Attorney General has never heard of the prohibition on ex post facto laws. SAM can’t be the basis for a criminal indictment anyway. She was also charged with allowing the interpreter to have a prohibited conversation with the Sheikh. Considering she doesn’t understand any Arabic, this allegation doesn’t pass the laugh test. How far does Ashcroft have to go before the American public speaks up? The legal documents and other info can be found [here](http://www.lynnestewart.org/legal.html). ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2002, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynne-stewart-and-ashcrofts-burning-of-the-constitution/128531/2 "2002-09-15T12:31:32Z")
This issue was mentioned in one of the Ashcroft threads. I don’t have time to look up cites right now, but here’s my understanding of the allegation: What she supposedly did was to misuse her privileges as this imprisoned terrorist leader’s lawyer to help him commuicate with other terorrists outside of prison. Allegedly she helped him continue to lead terrorist activites from his cell. If these allegations are true, she deserves the harshest of punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Necros](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/necros/32/11086_2.png) [@Necros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necros)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2002, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynne-stewart-and-ashcrofts-burning-of-the-constitution/128531/3 "2002-09-15T12:48:55Z")
**december** , I think the point is that she is accused of violating a law that didn’t exist at the time she allegedly violated the law. That would be pretty clearly unconstitutional. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2002, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynne-stewart-and-ashcrofts-burning-of-the-constitution/128531/4 "2002-09-15T15:10:12Z")
It was mentioned in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=133438&highlight=Ashcroft). Have no fear, though, a [rigorous standard](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=2417824#post2417824) has been applied in the SDMB, pronouncing her guilty. (Perhaps Ashcroft has need of another adviser; think he’d take an actuary off our hands?) ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2002, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynne-stewart-and-ashcrofts-burning-of-the-constitution/128531/5 "2002-09-15T15:17:52Z")
So, describing “an opinion of her client on the political situation in Egypt” is a terrorist activity? **december** , you’ve made no secret of your support of this administration “bending” the constitution, nor your allegiance to the Republican party. My question to you is, do you realize that in as short as two years it’s quite possible that the president might actually not be a saintly Republican, but a Democrat? Do you think the “war” on terrorism will end with Bush’s term? When democrats start locking people up with no trial or access to council, are we to look forward to your continued spirited and newly non-partisan defence of government ignoring civil liberties in the name of an undeclared was with no end criteria? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2002, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynne-stewart-and-ashcrofts-burning-of-the-constitution/128531/6 "2002-09-15T17:39:05Z")
**Revtim** , note that Clinton and Gore took illegal foreign campaign contributions. In a way this practice was an oblique attack on democracy, because it reduced the ability of America to conduct a fair election. At least, Ashcroft’s threat’s to civil liberties were for the public good, not for his own selfish political gain. However, I see the Stewart issue as more a question of what acts she did or did not commit. As far as I can see, the Stewart debate revolves around what she actually did. Or, more precisely, what the government can prove that she did. Here’s a [discussion](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/terrorism/jan-june02/indictments_4-9.html) from the NT Times > [@](#): > > But obviously what the government is saying by charging her with providing material support to terrorism, a charge that carries a heavy sentence and is close to terrorism, is that she was, in effect, trying to facilitate future terrorist acts for the sheik… > > …the defense is likely to argue that what she was doing is very much a part of lawyer-client privilege, that she was acting as a lawyer. So, which is it? Was she trying to facilitate future terrorist acts or was she simply behaving as a lawyer making normal use of lawyer-client privilege. If it’s the former, she has commited a serious infraction – both illegal and immoral. If it’s the latter, the government is wrong to prosecute her. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2002, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynne-stewart-and-ashcrofts-burning-of-the-constitution/128531/7 "2002-09-15T18:25:48Z")
No, **december** , the debate and the trial have nothing to do with what she actually did. She did not try to hide the fact that she released a statement to Reuters. If the government now considers Reuters a foreign terrorist organization then the Constitution is in more danger than I thought. What gets me is that the Bureau of Prisons regulation that she is accused of violating is not a law. An infraction of these types of regulation usually results in a stern warning, not a serious criminal indictment. It’s really scary the way the executive branch feels free to declare laws on its own, without any involvement of Congress. **december** , your cite is _not_ from the NY Times. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2002, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynne-stewart-and-ashcrofts-burning-of-the-constitution/128531/8 "2002-09-15T18:45:44Z")
You didn’t even come close to answering my question **december**. When and if democrats are in the white house, will you support them when they lock up suspects with no trial or legal council, as you support the Bush administration? ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2002, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynne-stewart-and-ashcrofts-burning-of-the-constitution/128531/9 "2002-09-15T19:16:51Z")
> [@](#): > > december, your cite is not from the NY Times. Well, it _is_ an interview with “New York Times correspondent Ben Weiser”. So it’s “a cite from the New York Times” the same way this is [“a cite from CBS”:](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/archive/2029634.stm) :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Let us take Operation Anaconda which was presented to the American people and remains presented to the American people as a outstanding victory. But there are some very serious questions particularly the early hours of Operation Anaconda. Somebody sent some of America’s best into a trap. ---
**Author:** ![JamesCarroll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@JamesCarroll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JamesCarroll)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2002, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynne-stewart-and-ashcrofts-burning-of-the-constitution/128531/10 "2002-09-15T21:23:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Revtim \* > > When and if democrats are in the white house, will you support them when they lock up suspects with no trial or legal council, as you support the Bush administration? \*\* Sure, right up to the part where they have the ATF burn the place down with everyone inside. But, the real problem is that the Dems probably wouldn’t do anything. They would never risk losing the ACLU/Liberal vote. Its one thing to tick off people who wouldn’t vote for you anyways and quite another to tick off a core group of supporters. And that’s one advantage, I think, that the Republicans have. Everyone (well at least the ones that were read “1984” as a bed time story) expects the evil GOP do this sort of stuff. So when they pull over three guys on a terrorist tip, half the crowd yells racial profiing and the other half yells prudence. But the political balance stays the same. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2002, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynne-stewart-and-ashcrofts-burning-of-the-constitution/128531/11 "2002-09-16T00:24:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Revtim \* > \*\*You didn’t even come close to answering my question **december**. > > When and if democrats are in the white house, will you support them when they lock up suspects with no trial or legal council, as you support the Bush administration? \*\* I didn’t take the question seriously, in part because it’s a hijack. It has nothing to do with Lynne Stewrat. Also, your question is vague. Are you talking about Americans, immigrants, illegal aliens? What circumstances are you talking about? What purpose are you assuming for locking up these people? What judicial decisions are you assuming? I think we have discussed this sort of thing in other threads. However, if you want more discussion on this topic, maybe you should start another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2002, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynne-stewart-and-ashcrofts-burning-of-the-constitution/128531/12 "2002-09-16T00:37:31Z")
Of course, I’m talking of the same Constitutionally-challenging circumstances that people have jailed under the current administration, **including Lynne Stewart**. If these arrests had occurred during, say, a Gore administration, would you also support what you feel is the government’s increased “wartime” power to suspend their right to counsil? ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2002, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lynne-stewart-and-ashcrofts-burning-of-the-constitution/128531/13 "2002-09-21T21:23:26Z")
Unfortunately, we lost some posts on this thread. I started preparing a response to one of **Zoff** ’s posts when the board went down. I have some of it saved and might get back to it later. In the meantime, the NY Times magazine is running an article on Lynne Stewart’s case tomorrow. [http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/22/magazine/22STEWART.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/22/magazine/22STEWART.html)