# "M" 1931. Peter Lorre. D: Fritz Lang **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies\ **Created:** [September 20, 1999, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-1931-peter-lorre-d-fritz-lang/3360 "1999-09-20T13:12:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2022, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-1931-peter-lorre-d-fritz-lang/3360/21 "2022-08-25T11:52:31Z")
I saw this thread bumped from 1999 and was all set to report a spammer. But **ARAMCObrat** posted relevant and well-sourced information that directly answers the question. Welcome aboard! ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2022, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-1931-peter-lorre-d-fritz-lang/3360/22 "2022-08-25T15:16:55Z")
Pedophilia has a long history as a subject in the arts. You’ll find tons of it in ancient and Renaissance literature and paintings, often with a rather liberal and permissive tone. It might have been a sensitive topic to talk about in the 1930s, but it was certainly not so alien as to be unthinkable to those audiences. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2022, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-1931-peter-lorre-d-fritz-lang/3360/23 "2022-08-25T18:05:13Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > I have to disagree with RC here. 1920s Germany suffered through a few well-publicized serial killing sprees, and the one carried out by Fritz Haarman included same-sex pedophilia plus cannibalism. The good Bavarian burghers weren’t as innocent as you think, Mister Jaded Fin-de-Siecle Guy. I remember my grandma who was born around 1910 singing this song: _Warte, warte nur ein Weilchen_ _Dann kommt Haarmann auch zu dir_ _Mit dem kleinen Hackebeilchen_ _Macht er Hackefleisch aus dir_ Wait, wait only for a short while Then Haarmann will come for you too With the little meat chopper He’ll make ground meat out of you Of course this scared us kids and we asked her who Haarmann was. She soothed us “Don’t worry, he’s long dead and did his deeds a long time ago, before the war”. But it shows that such atrocities by serial killers were very much present in the Weimar society. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2022, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-1931-peter-lorre-d-fritz-lang/3360/24 "2022-08-25T19:39:55Z")
It’s not for children, but Randy Newman had a song about Peter Kurten: _In Germany Before The War_ _There was a man who owned a store_ _In nineteen hundred thirty four_ _In Dusseldorf_… _A little girl has lost her way_ _With hair of gold and eyes of gray_ _Reflected in his glasses_ _As he watches her_ _A little girl has lost her way_… _We lie beneath the autumn sky_ _My little golden girl and I_ _And she lies very still_ ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2022, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-1931-peter-lorre-d-fritz-lang/3360/25 "2022-08-25T21:13:16Z")
I guess not every sadistic murder involves rape and/or pedophilia, but generally that seems to be the pattern. There’s the allegation, for example, that Freud deliberately knowingly made up the whole thing about Oedipus complex and Electra complex. He found it easier to claim that his patients were remembering fantasies rather than admit that there was pedophilia also going on in some of the upper class households in Vienna, even though he recognized the trauma was from early childhood molestation. However, I think the revelations in the news about child abuse over the last many decades, and the fact that it had been generally hidden or ignored or deliberately overlooked, has made people today far more suspicious than people were a century or more ago. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-1931-peter-lorre-d-fritz-lang/3360/26 "2022-08-26T01:45:54Z")
I haven’t seen the movie in a long time but I am surprised now that the killer wasn’t identified as a pedophile, I thought that was a clear impression made in the film. ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-1931-peter-lorre-d-fritz-lang/3360/27 "2022-08-26T01:58:35Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > The 1931 audience probably never considered the pedophile angle. No one really thought about such matters. It’s not that the subject was too sensitive; it’s that it was too alien. Either that, or else nobody dared to talk about it in polite society. But it’s probably the former. My evidence: the fact that the early Shirley Temple movies were made in the same timeframe. (For those of you who don’t know what I’m talking about: go to Youtube, and watch any of the “Baby Burlesk” videos.) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-1931-peter-lorre-d-fritz-lang/3360/28 "2022-08-26T02:14:12Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > > [@RealityChuck](#): > > > > The 1931 audience probably never considered the pedophile angle. No one really thought about such matters. It’s not that the subject was too sensitive; it’s that it was too alien. > > Either that, or else nobody dared to talk about it in polite society. But it’s probably the former. Most likely, audiences knew full well what was going on, but the subject was considered too horrific for explicit presentation in a movie. Subtlety does not equate to naivete. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-1931-peter-lorre-d-fritz-lang/3360/29 "2022-08-26T08:38:57Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > My evidence: the fact that the early Shirley Temple movies were made in the same timeframe. The novelist Graham Greene got into trouble at the time for discussing what she was asked to do in - shall we say, _very_ adult terms, maybe precisely because he had brought into the open what most people preferred not to think about: [https://thecharnelhouse.org/2014/02/25/graham-greenes-infamous-review-of-wee-willie-winkie-1937-starring-shirley-temple/](https://thecharnelhouse.org/2014/02/25/graham-greenes-infamous-review-of-wee-willie-winkie-1937-starring-shirley-temple/) ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-1931-peter-lorre-d-fritz-lang/3360/30 "2022-08-26T09:30:47Z")
The Cafe didn’t exist when this thread was created, but that’s where this thread belongs now. Moving thread from FQ to Cafe Society. ---
**Author:** ![Encinitas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@Encinitas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Encinitas)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-1931-peter-lorre-d-fritz-lang/3360/31 "2022-08-26T10:37:09Z")
But, but…did @Flora McFlimsey and @Ukulele_Ike ever hook up? ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-1931-peter-lorre-d-fritz-lang/3360/32 "2022-08-26T14:10:07Z")
Well, they (and others from the NYC area) did meet back in the dopefest era, but it wasn’t a ‘hook-up.’ For some unknown reason, Flora’s posts are gone, but the person behind Flora created a \*new board name, which many of us remember: Eve. (BTW, one of the few Dopers I’ve actually met IRL.) Back in the old days, the rules were somewhat looser about multiple screen names, and this thread was only six months after the board moved off AOL and let all the internet riff-raff in (including yours truly). ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-1931-peter-lorre-d-fritz-lang/3360/33 "2022-08-26T16:44:59Z")
For what it’s worth, here’s my personal take: I first saw “M” about ten years ago, as someone born in 1968 and with a current mindset, but it was clear for me that Peter Lorre’s character was not only a child murderer, but a pedophile. What clinched it for me is his defense speech in front of the tribunal of the underworld crime gangs, which I remember best of the film because it was such an outstanding scene. In this speech, he says (paraphrased) “You are doing your crimes for petty financial gain, but I? I can’t help it, I have to do it! How could I do otherwise?” This strongly pointed to a sexual motive. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-1931-peter-lorre-d-fritz-lang/3360/34 "2022-08-26T17:32:27Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > It’s not that the subject was too sensitive; it’s that it was too alien. > [@Schnitte](#): > > Pedophilia has a long history as a subject in the arts. You’ll find tons of it in ancient and Renaissance literature and paintings, often with a rather liberal and permissive tone. It might have been a sensitive topic to talk about in the 1930s, but it was certainly not so alien as to be unthinkable to those audiences. I came here to agree with these comments. Pedophilia was certainly not unknown before our era. It was just handled more subtley in the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Encinitas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@Encinitas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Encinitas)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2022, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-1931-peter-lorre-d-fritz-lang/3360/35 "2022-08-27T04:44:16Z")
Oh it’s @Eve! I should have guessed from the Algonquin reference. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-1931-peter-lorre-d-fritz-lang/3360.md?page=1)