# M\*A\*S\*H Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 12, 2018, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-a-s-h-question/817805 "2018-07-12T19:16:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-a-s-h-question/817805/21 "2018-07-12T22:29:28Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > Burns was a major but he was regular army. I’m not sure about that. I watched the show religiously during the 1970s, though I admit I haven’t seen more than a few episodes in many years, but I don’t recall Burns being “regular army” – I was always under the impression that, like most of the other surgeons in the series, he, too, was a civilian doctor who was called into military services. OTOH, he definitely was a stickler for military discipline (at least, when it suited him). And, one could make the argument that there’s no way that Margaret (who was as “regular army” as it comes) wouldn’t have dated him otherwise. The [M_A_S\*H Wiki entry on him](http://mash.wikia.com/wiki/Major_Frank_Burns) doesn’t make it crystal-clear one way or the other, but there are a few references that suggest (at least to me) that he was a civilian before the war: - “In one M_A_S\*H episode, Burns claims he was in practice for 12 years.” - “the local funeral director sends him thank-you cards every Christmas” - “Even with his numerous surgical shortcomings, Burns still considered himself better than the others largely because of his own affluent practice back home” ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-a-s-h-question/817805/22 "2018-07-12T22:32:28Z")
We used to say “Needs of the Navy (insert service of choice)” to explain a lot of things. I had an Associates degree when I took the ASVAB in 1978 and the recruiter talked about going in as an E-3 (another thing we used to say is “My recruiter lied to me!”). This was post-Vietnam and post-draft when the services had to work hard to recruit, certain rates were harder to fill than others. ---
**Author:** ![FairyChatMom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fairychatmom/32/21906_2.png) [@FairyChatMom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FairyChatMom)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-a-s-h-question/817805/23 "2018-07-12T22:44:03Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I had two years of college, and I didn’t get an instant promotion in the same era. Could yours have been due to ROTC training or a specialty? No - they said because I had more than XX credits (can’t recall the number now) I was eligible for E-2. I had been a French major at a liberal arts college and I was going in for Avionics training, so my college wasn’t at all related to my future Navy training. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-a-s-h-question/817805/24 "2018-07-12T22:48:42Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > So he got drafted and was assigned to Tokyo General? Then he pissed off a colonel over a game of cribbage and got sent to Korea? I could see Daddy Dear pulling some strings to make sure Chuck wasn’t assigned to the front after he was drafted. Well, it wasn’t _a_ game - over multiple games the Colonel had racked up gambling losses of ~$672.17 to Winchester, which as I understand it over a month’s pay for the colonel, and Winchester was being obnoxiously gloaty about it. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-a-s-h-question/817805/25 "2018-07-12T23:19:56Z")
It could also be he was filling an 0-4 (major) billet so they commissioned him as one when he was drafted. Military units have a certain number of billets (positions) by rank and rating (job). I knew a one Electronics Technician when I was in the Coast Guard who had enough experience in the civilian field that he came in as E-5 (ET2) when he enlisted. Not quite sure of the 4077 command structure but since a Colonel is in charge, they almost certainly would have a Major that is a man with Houlihan the Major for women. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-a-s-h-question/817805/26 "2018-07-13T00:14:54Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > I’m not sure about that. I watched the show religiously during the 1970s, though I admit I haven’t seen more than a few episodes in many years, but I don’t recall Burns being “regular army” – I was always under the impression that, like most of the other surgeons in the series, he, too, was a civilian doctor who was called into military services. OTOH, he definitely was a stickler for military discipline (at least, when it suited him). And, one could make the argument that there’s no way that Margaret (who was as “regular army” as it comes) wouldn’t have dated him otherwise. > > The [M_A_S\*H Wiki entry on him](http://mash.wikia.com/wiki/Major_Frank_Burns) doesn’t make it crystal-clear one way or the other, but there are a few references that suggest (at least to me) that he was a civilian before the war: > > - “In one M_A_S\*H episode, Burns claims he was in practice for 12 years.” > - “the local funeral director sends him thank-you cards every Christmas” > - “Even with his numerous surgical shortcomings, Burns still considered himself better than the others largely because of his own affluent practice back home” IIRC, Burns wasn’t Regular Army, like Potter, but he was a _volunteer_, so he probably did have more time in service than Pierce or the others. I never heard anything about Winchester being a recalled WWII vet, but that makes sense. No way would Winchester volunteer for Korean service, and you’d think his family connections could have gotten him out of it altogether. However, considering the age he would have been during WWII, and the fervor going on then, he actually could have been a WWII volunteer. One other possibility is that his family couldn’t get him out of the draft for some reason, so he volunteered for service, because by doing so, he had more control over where he was sent and what he had to do. He also might get more rank in exchange for being a volunteer. When I was in the military, they were desperate for nurses, and had a “stripes for skills” program going on, where anyone with a four-year nursing degree was an E-4 in basic, but then upon completion of basic, went to an abbreviated leadership school, and immediately became an E-5, without having to “put in” for a promotion. Someone in my Basic unit was taking advantage of that program. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-a-s-h-question/817805/27 "2018-07-13T01:23:06Z")
I seem to recall that Burns said he had attended Command School, like Blake, while none of the other surgeons had (or at least, it was never mentioned.) It’s possible they went to colleges that had a compulsory undergraduate R.O.T.C. program, and that slotted them into a different track than the others. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-a-s-h-question/817805/28 "2018-07-13T03:49:19Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > IIRC, Burns wasn’t Regular Army, like Potter, but he was a _volunteer_, so he probably did have more time in service than Pierce or the others. > > I never heard anything about Winchester being a recalled WWII vet, but that makes sense. No way would Winchester volunteer for Korean service, and you’d think his family connections could have gotten him out of it altogether. However, considering the age he would have been during WWII, and the fervor going on then, he actually could have been a WWII volunteer. It could also be his family connections didn’t help (or they decided not to try too much). Back in the 1950s you can find some baseball players who were World Series stars such as Billy Martin and Johnny Podres suddenly getting drafted. Not sure if their employers could help (or want to face the wrath of fans for having shirkers). ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-a-s-h-question/817805/29 "2018-07-13T08:06:46Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > So he got drafted and was assigned to Tokyo General? Then he pissed off a colonel over a game of cribbage and got sent to Korea? I could see Daddy Dear pulling some strings to make sure Chuck wasn’t assigned to the front after he was drafted. Hmm. The maximum draft age during Korea was 35. Winchester seemed at least that old, given med school and the time it took to get to his position. Being drafted in WW II and called up again seems just as likely. I never had the impression that Burns was regular Army, but Blake was in the novel, but definitely not on the TV show. I don’t remember if how he made colonel was ever discussed. ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-a-s-h-question/817805/30 "2018-07-13T08:12:36Z")
**Charles** : _Sir, my father knows Harry Truman. He doesn’t like him, but he knows him_. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-a-s-h-question/817805/31 "2018-07-13T10:50:37Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Hmm. The maximum draft age during Korea was 35. Winchester seemed at least that old, given med school and the time it took to get to his position. Being drafted in WW II and called up again seems just as likely. The series often made mistakes when they tried to link it to contemporary dates or events. Winchester supposedly graduated from Harvard Medical in 1948. He have to be pretty prodigious to complete an internship and residency and be on track for chief of thoracic surgery at a major hospital _and_ either enlist or be drafted in order to be in the army for the final months of the Korean War circa mid-1953. For what it’s worth, actor David Odgen Stiers was just under 35 when he first appeared as Winchester. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-a-s-h-question/817805/32 "2018-07-13T12:01:21Z")
We know Margaret was regular Army and her father was in the Army. I know at the end of the show she was going back to the States to work in a VA (?) hospital. Wouldn’t she have been eligible for promotion? She had all the nurses reporting to her, and probably Klinger as a dotted line medic. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-a-s-h-question/817805/33 "2018-07-13T12:06:03Z")
For those with experience in the military, particularly in the medical area, what rank are doctors generally given? Captains, majors? Something else? How about nurses? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-a-s-h-question/817805/34 "2018-07-13T12:10:36Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > For those with experience in the military, particularly in the medical area, what rank are doctors generally given? Captains, majors? Something else? How about nurses? People with professional degrees like lawyers and doctors start as captains. Nurses start as lieutenants. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-a-s-h-question/817805/35 "2018-07-13T12:21:43Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > People with professional degrees like lawyers and doctors start as captains. Nurses start as lieutenants. Thanks for the info. One more question: Could a lieutenant nurse walk into a barracks and order a sergeant to drop to the floor and do pushups? Or can orders only be given within the scope of the officer’s realm of duty? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-a-s-h-question/817805/36 "2018-07-13T13:29:55Z")
Yes, they are commissioned officers who have the authority to give lawful orders. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-a-s-h-question/817805/37 "2018-07-13T14:41:35Z")
Acsenray: > [@](#): > > Nurses start as lieutenants. [As long as they’re women](https://www.mash4077tv.com/2013/08/episode-spotlight-your-retention-please/) ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-a-s-h-question/817805/38 "2018-07-13T14:43:10Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Winchester supposedly graduated from Harvard Medical in 1948. ISTR him saying “Harvard, '43.” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-a-s-h-question/817805/39 "2018-07-13T14:48:29Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > ISTR him saying “Harvard, '43.” I would think that’s his undergraduate class. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-a-s-h-question/817805/40 "2018-07-13T14:57:41Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > IIRC, they called for Hawkeye whenever anyone had a chest wound. In the film, they brought in Trapper specifically because they needed a ‘chest cutter’. Neither Trapper nor Hawkeye were ever going to be promoted. They made it a point to be insubordinate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-a-s-h-question/817805.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/m-a-s-h-question/817805.md?page=3)