# Mac computers - is it mostly just image and status? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 20, 2010, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748 "2010-02-20T07:05:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2010, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/281 "2010-02-27T06:02:19Z")
> [@WarmNPrickly](#): > > :rolleyes: > > It’s not the same software. This response doesn’t make sense. Apple used to have fairly different internals, but now they use much of the same hardware PCs use. But they charge more for that same hardware. If they just sold the OS by itself and allowed people to build their own PCs, they would no longer profit from marking up the hardware. By selling it as one package, they get to charge both for their software and a premium on the same hardware a user could otherwise get more cheaply on the open market. ---
**Author:** ![Anamorphic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/anamorphic/32/3057_2.png) [@Anamorphic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anamorphic)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2010, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/282 "2010-02-27T09:02:17Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > That’s precisely it. You DON’T have control over your music because you HAVE to use a particular program. (My earlier post notwithstanding). You take your iPod to a computer without iTunes, and you can’t do anything with it without installing something. Complete control over music would mean I could deal with it on any computer that has the appropriate plugs. So, I’ve got my iPod with me, and I’m at some hypothetical random computer that’s not mine. What exactly is it I’m supposed to be frustrated that I can’t do? It’s not my computer, so my music collection isn’t on it, so it’s not like I need to grab more of my music from it. Nor do I need to back the music from my iPod up to it since, again, it’s not my computer. I suppose, hey, maybe hypothetically it’s a friend’s computer, and he wants to share the mp3 of the song his band just recorded. I guess you got me there… I’d have to mount the iPod in disc mode, copy the mp3 to it, and load it in properly when I got home. So, I guess you’re right… it’s not total, absolute, anywhere I go under any circumstances control. I’ve never run into anything resembling this hypothetical, but I suppose it could happen. I think I can live with that. > [@BigT](#): > > But even if you don’t think that’s a big deal, you’re still locked in to using a program that has features you may not like. You see another program that does it better than iTunes? Tough. You have to use their software. You’re locked in. [Here’s a comparison](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_iPod_managers) of 31 other programs that you can use to manage an iPod, with varying features. > [@BigT](#): > > BTW: one thing that iTunes would not let me do was copy the music off my iPod back to my computer. I agree, this is annoying. See the above list, though. Many of those programs allow you to do just that. ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2010, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/283 "2010-02-27T13:49:34Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > This response doesn’t make sense. > > Apple used to have fairly different internals, but now they use much of the same hardware PCs use. But they charge more for that same hardware. If they just sold the OS by itself and allowed people to build their own PCs, they would no longer profit from marking up the hardware. By selling it as one package, they get to charge both for their software and a premium on the same hardware a user could otherwise get more cheaply on the open market. If Apple let their software on any old piece of junk, then their software would be as buggy as Windows. The fact that they control both the hardware and the software means that they have fewer compatibility issues. Now maybe in your experience, Windows isn’t buggy. That’s why you are a Windows user. I have direct experience with recent Windows machines going wonky on simple tasks. That is why I will never buy a Windows machine. With the extra money I pay, I get what I want. > [@Martini Enfield](#): > > There’s not a lot of readily available alternatives anymore, though- you’ve either got el cheapo jobs from discount stores and bargain bins of department stores, or you’ve got iPods and maybe (if you want 4Gb or bigger) a Sony Walkman or possibly an iRiver. > > So it’s not as simple as saying “If you don’t want an iPod, don’t buy one” because it’s just not that easy unless you’re shopping online, which most people (at least in this part of the world) don’t do. So there aren’t a lot of alternatives (exepct the alternatives there are and you forgot the Zune), yet people continue to buy iPods. It’s almost as if people like their iPods. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2010, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/284 "2010-02-27T14:02:58Z")
> [@WarmNPrickly](#): > > If Apple let their software on any old piece of junk, then their software would be as buggy as Windows. The fact that they control both the hardware and the software means that they have fewer compatibility issues. > > Now maybe in your experience, Windows isn’t buggy. That’s why you are a Windows user. I have direct experience with recent Windows machines going wonky on simple tasks. That is why I will never buy a Windows machine. With the extra money I pay, I get what I want. The hardware issues that come from “compatability” problems are greatly exaggerated. It was a problem back in 1997 or so, but devices have been made with the current PNP architecture and standards for well over a decade. Do apple devices really not support any PNP device off the shelf? Can you not take a standard USB camera, mouse, joystick, whatever part you want, and plug it into an apple and have it work? Either they support this, and hence, suffer from the same burden of supporting a diverse set of peripherals, or they don’t, in which case they are crappy computers. If they do support this, then the only thing Apple is really controlling on the hardware side is the internal stuff. And now as far as I know they just use standard Intel processors and standard Intel chipsets and DDR3 ram with ATI and NVIDIA graphics cards. They are PCs that a different OS, more or less. And the reason they won’t let you build your own PC and put your OS on it is because if they sell it as a package, they can sell you that aforementioned intel processor, ATI graphics card, DDR3 ram, etc. at a high markup. ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2010, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/285 "2010-02-27T14:38:59Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > The hardware issues that come from “compatability” problems are greatly exaggerated. Maybe. I have no idea why Windows XP can be so buggy. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/286 "2010-02-27T17:54:03Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > BTW: one thing that iTunes would not let me do was copy the music off my iPod back to my computer. Granted, with disk access, finding the hidden folders, copying the music files into a folder where I then ran an MP3 renamer got them all back, but man was that a hassle. > . Herein lies my confusion and my apologies for misinterpreting the situation. I’ve read this before in other threads involving lost music and took this to mean you couldn’t back up your music. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/287 "2010-02-28T01:15:52Z")
> [@WarmNPrickly](#): > > So there aren’t a lot of alternatives (exepct the alternatives there are and you forgot the Zune), yet people continue to buy iPods. It’s almost as if people like their iPods. You must have missed the post I made earlier in the thread pointing out that the Zune isn’t available outside North America (and I live in Australia, which, yes, is outside North America). People like iPods because they’re made in funky colours and they’re “cute” and stylish and trendy. I’m speaking from professional experience here. In my years of electronics retail, the major reasons people got iPods was name recognition (advertising works, folks!), Hip/Funky design, availability of accessories (there’s a _huge_ aftermarket accessory market for iThings now), and high storage capacity (even now they’re the only company making a 30Gb+ player that’s readily available in this part of the world). No-one _ever_ asked me about “advanced” features like organising metadata or creating custom playlists or anything like that. It was “My daughter wants an iPod for Christmas” or “I have 80Gb of music and a long flight to London next week” or something like that. iPods were the first commercially successful MP3 players on the market and have great marketing, and as a result of that they’ve achieved critical mass but that doesn’t make them perfect- just popular. And since there’s not a lot of alternatives (most companies having said “sod it, Apple’s got the market pretty well sewn up”), “newbies” looking for an MP3 player end up with an iPod because A) That’s what everyone else has and B) That’s all they can find at the shops. ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/288 "2010-02-28T02:10:03Z")
And it doesn’t occur to you, that most people aren’t interested in those features. I don’t even know what metadata is. I’m not sure why you claim that you can’t make custom playlists. If you mean a list of songs that you want to play together, then you can. You can also create playlists that automatically update based on year, song title, group of artists or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/289 "2010-02-28T02:21:33Z")
> [@WarmNPrickly](#): > > And it doesn’t occur to you, that most people aren’t interested in those features. I don’t even know what metadata is. I’m not sure why you claim that you can’t make custom playlists. If you mean a list of songs that you want to play together, then you can. You can also create playlists that automatically update based on year, song title, group of artists or whatever. Sorry, are you reading what I’m actually posting, or any of the other posts in this thread? Because it sounds like you’ve just done a complete 180 of opinion and are now agreeing with me that most of the “features” iTunes offers are more or less unimportant to the average user and therefore there’s no reason for Apple to require it as part of the iPod’s basic functionality. I didn’t claim you can’t make custom playlists or anything like that. I said that, in my years of experience in electronics retail, customers never asked me if whatever MP3 player they were purchasing could do that. ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/290 "2010-02-28T02:26:38Z")
> [@NOLA\_Cajun](#): > > From what I’ve seen PC’s and MACS use basically the same hardware on the inside. Is there any hardware in a MAC that you can’t find in a PC? And this to me begs the question: Why isn’t Apple getting filthy rich by just liscensing their OS in the US without having to buy their hardware? I guess I just don’t get it. I’ve seen people try to explain it but the bottom line is that it just makes no sense to me. What doesn’t make sense? Having the hardware from a single vendor means less issues for customers and apple to deal with. The hardware is a known quantity. ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/291 "2010-02-28T02:29:10Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > And since there’s not a lot of alternatives (most companies having said “sod it, Apple’s got the market pretty well sewn up”), “newbies” looking for an MP3 player end up with an iPod because A) That’s what everyone else has and B) That’s all they can find at the shops. That’s not true, there are a number of competitors: Sandisk Sansa, MS Zune, Sony Walkman, Creative Zen, many cellphones and almost all smartphones, various generic mp3 players, and others. ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/292 "2010-02-28T02:44:01Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Sorry, are you reading what I’m actually posting, or any of the other posts in this thread? Because it sounds like you’ve just done a complete 180 of opinion and are now agreeing with me that most of the “features” iTunes offers are more or less unimportant to the average user and therefore there’s no reason for Apple to require it as part of the iPod’s basic functionality. > > I didn’t claim you can’t make custom playlists or anything like that. I said that, in my years of experience in electronics retail, customers never asked me if whatever MP3 player they were purchasing could do that. I haven’t done a 180 at all. I don’t see any reason iTunes should add functionality that most people don’t want. Increased functionality leads to increased complexity. Increased complexity leads to increased problems. I want a music player. People that want something else should buy something else. Why should they ask? I would hope that all high end players do those things. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/293 "2010-02-28T02:45:03Z")
> [@thirdname](#): > > That’s not true, there are a number of competitors: Sandisk Sansa, MS Zune, Sony Walkman, Creative Zen, many cellphones and almost all smartphones, various generic mp3 players, and others. For about the fourth time: I live in Australia. No Zunes here. I’ve acknowledged the Sony Walkman already, Creative Zens appear to have gone off the market in the smaller sizes, and I was completely unable to find a SanDisk Sansa in the shops when I went looking a few months ago. Most places hadn’t even heard of it. Now apparently Philips have introduced an affordable player, but the point I’m making is that just because these products exist doesn’t mean they’re actually on store shelves (and most people in this part of the world still buy from actual stores). The “readily-available” non-iPod MP3 players are either el cheapo bargain bin jobs with almost no screen, or Sony Walkmen. And Sony stuff costs a fortune, but they are pretty good. Phones don’t count- they’re phones first with the ability to play MP3s as a secondary feature. The situation is better than it once was, but the fact remains that if you want anything bigger than 8GB your only option is an iPod or a Creative Zen- and Zens are good units but they’re still a bit big and chunky when compared to an iPod. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/294 "2010-02-28T02:48:36Z")
> [@WarmNPrickly](#): > > I haven’t done a 180 at all. I don’t see any reason iTunes should add functionality that most people don’t want. Increased functionality leads to increased complexity. Increased complexity leads to increased problems. I want a music player. People that want something else should buy something else. > > Why should they ask? I would hope that all high end players do those things. It’s just that you’ve spent most of this thread attacking me for having the view that you’ve now just said you support and I’m now very confused. And electronics retail customers ask a lot of questions which might be considered “dumb” or “obvious” to people with any sort of tech savviness (like “Do the earphones come with it?” or “Can I put my music on it without a computer?”) so compared to that, “Can I create and use custom playlists?” (or some variation on it) is _exactly_ the sort of question I’d expect customers to have been asking. Yet they didn’t, for some reason. ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/295 "2010-02-28T03:03:52Z")
I’m not attacking you at all, I’m defending the fact that I bought a Macintosh because I like the way they work. If you don’t like Apple products, don’t buy them. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/296 "2010-02-28T03:06:27Z")
> [@WarmNPrickly](#): > > I’m not attacking you at all, I’m defending the fact that I bought a Macintosh because I like the way they work. If you don’t like Apple products, don’t buy them. You’re defending Apple by criticising the major “features” of iTunes being lauded over drag n’ drop? Seriously, have you actually read through this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/297 "2010-02-28T03:15:48Z")
…and the discussion always comes back to what \*\*mhendo \*\*said (paraphrasing) “If Microsoft does it, it’s a bug; if Apple does it, it’s a feature”. Many not-that-tech-savvy people who have bought iPods complain about the not-drag-and-drop and sharing from other computers. This is especially true when you first get it and want lots of music and go song-searching on friends’ computers. Many people who buy Macs also end up upgrading an older computers so that the comparison isn’t that fair “My 2010 Mac is better than my 2006 PC-Laptop because it’s a Mac”. ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/298 "2010-02-28T03:41:21Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > You’re defending Apple by criticising the major “features” of iTunes being lauded over drag n’ drop? Seriously, have you actually read through this thread? I don’t think your reading this thread. I’m not criticizing Apples features. Can you show me where I’m criticizing Apples features? I like the way iTunes works and prefer it over drag-n-drop. ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/299 "2010-02-28T03:47:06Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Many not-that-tech-savvy people who have bought iPods complain about the not-drag-and-drop and sharing from other computers. This is especially true when you first get it and want lots of music and go song-searching on friends’ computers. I have no doubt that this is true. It’s also trivial to get around, since you can use the iPod like a hard drive. It’s also copying songs without purchasing them, which is one of the reasons the iPod was set up this way. If you want to steal music, you’ll just have load onto a thumb drive, a hard drive, or your iPod. Then copy it to your own computer and voila, you have your stolen music. ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/300 "2010-02-28T03:58:59Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > …and the discussion always comes back to what \*\*mhendo \*\*said (paraphrasing) “If Microsoft does it, it’s a bug; if Apple does it, it’s a feature”. So when we can’t get my wifes computer to connect to our network (a network shes used many times) because for some reason some toggle got switched some place. And despite the fact that by all indications her computer is connected to our wifi network, her Windows XP computer Set-up Wizard is not giving us the option to use the wifi network, instead sending all internet traffic to the comletely unconnected ethernet port. That’s a feature. Gotcha! I’ll explain that to my dad when he comes up, because he had the exact same problem. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748.md?page=16)