# Mac computers - is it mostly just image and status? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 20, 2010, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748 "2010-02-20T07:05:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/61 "2010-02-21T05:06:24Z")
I miss my Mac Pro, 1990. It had an easily-dismissed OS. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/62 "2010-02-21T05:20:14Z")
FTR, claims of how free of external attacks, like viruses, your OS is is a red flag asking that your OS, which is totally vulnerable, should be the one the Bad Guys attack. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/63 "2010-02-21T05:24:43Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > FTR, claims of how free of external attacks, like viruses, your OS is is a red flag asking that your OS, which is totally vulnerable, should be the one the Bad Guys attack. Nah. You only attack the OS with 90% market share. Still, OSX does have a much simpler and rigidly enforced security model. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/64 "2010-02-21T05:34:12Z")
> [@jasg](#): > > Looks like the “Apple Tax” for the Macbook Pro is more than for the Macbook. The only thing I’d add to your config is an update to Win7 Pro or Ultimate. I run Ultimate on my Win 7 box and find it closer to OSX than the Home version. Still would be a $350 delta though. I’ll happily pay an extra $350 to get an Apple over a Dell, considering the relative quality of the end product and support from the companies. My extensive experience with Dell through work has thoroughly convinced that, by this comparison, the Apple tax is worth paying. To the OP: No, it’s not _mostly_ image and status, but it is a difficult-to-quantify difference in quality. You can argue that the perception of quality is illusory, but it’s still a perception that the quality of an Apple product is higher than an equivalent PC/laptop. Quality of components, quality of build, quality of support, quality of user experience… real or not, the perception that the quality is higher is what convinces most Apple users to be Apple users. ---
**Author:** ![eno801](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@eno801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eno801)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/65 "2010-02-21T06:11:18Z")
aren’t macs made in china along with almost all laptops? give me something made in japan for build quality. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/66 "2010-02-21T06:16:14Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > I’m sorry; don’t you mean UNIX? Nope. For one thing, Darwin is not UNIX, although it is [Unix-like](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix-like). But, more importantly, I’m not just talking about the base. I think the way UI handles thing is a lot better. And I’m not talking about the aesthetics so much (because that does get old), but how the way things are put together make more sense. A simple thing like uninstalling apps by dragging to the trash, just makes a lot more sense to me. There are things where they could get some ideas to improve from Windows, like MDI helpfiles, and zoom and closure behavior, but, as a whole, I think the MacOS better reflects how a computer should interact with its users. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/67 "2010-02-21T06:25:06Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Nope. For one thing, Darwin is not UNIX, although it is [Unix-like](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix-like). Mac OS X (and thus presumably Darwin) is POSIX complient. Its not Unix-like, its a certified Unix OS. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/68 "2010-02-21T06:27:05Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Nope. For one thing, Darwin is not UNIX, although it is [Unix-like](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix-like). On the other hand, [Mac OSX 10.5 is a certified UNIX implementation](http://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/certificates/1190p.pdf) (Links to PDF). ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/69 "2010-02-21T07:11:10Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > Macs and PCs are hard to directly compare sometimes though. The hardware on a Mac is no different than the hardware on a mid- or high-end PC, so that’s not really an issue in my mind. And when it comes to OS issues, there’s a lot of subjectivity. Exactly. I think that the simplistic comparisons people make often do a disservice to both Macs AND Windows computers. Macs are, in many ways, an integrated system. Apple sells hardware, and primarily hardware, and also offers an OS to go with it. In the non-Mac world, you have a gajillion different hardware manufacturers and configurations and combinations, as well as choices of various operating systems and (with Windows) various levels of operating system. You can’t simply compare Mac hardware with PC hardware, because there’s so much different PC hardware. And you also can’t simply compare operating systems without taking into account things like hardware choice, cost, flexibility, adaptability, etc. Macs make good quality machines, but one of the reasons they cost more is also that, being primarily a hardware seller, that’s where Apple wants to make its profit. For example, go to the Mac store and look at the Mac Pro desktop computers. Now looks how much Apple wants to charge you to add a second (2TB) hard drive to a desktop: $550. $550?!!! For a 3GB/sec internal SATA HDD. I can go on [newegg.com](http://newegg.com) (a very trustworthy hardware retailer) and pick up 2TB 3.0Gb/sec drives from reputable makers like Samsung, Seagate, and Hitachi, for under $200. And if i want to spend more, i can get a newer 6.0Gb/sec drive for $300. The funny thing is that an internal hard drive upgrade is probably the LAST thing in the world i’d ever buy from Apple. Their desktop computer cases are so well designed and have so much space that you would have to be more technologically retarded than my mother to be incapable of adding your own hard drive. By comparison, adding a second hard drive to my HP desktop required quite a fiddly and complicated little operation, involving springing an almost-impossible-to-see lever with a long screwdriver and removing the HP media drive chassis in order to get to the hard drive bay. As for OS reliability, i’m not convinced that the gap is anywhere near as large as it used to be. Despite all the superior sneering among some Mac snobs about the Blue Screen of Death, i literally have not seen one of those since i got XP almost 6 years ago, and Windows 7 so far looks to be a very stable and reliable operating system. Conversely, i’ve actually been rather surprised by how many little problems my wife’s Macbook Pro has had in the year and half since she got it. When she started her new job, she had a choice between the Mac and some nice, high-end PC laptops, and she got the Mac largely on my recommendation. But it has had occasional problems with freezing programs and the spinning rainbow wheel that won’t stop no matter what you do. And before anyone chimes in and says, “Yeah, but that’s the exception,” i should add that considerable internet research has suggested that plenty of other Mac users have run into identical problems. None of this changes my high opinion of Macs, and if my wife were faced with exactly the same computer choice again today, i’d still recommend that she get the Macbook. But Macs are not immune from hardware or software problems, and many of the criticisms that Mac snobs make about Windows computers are clearly the product of a mindset that hasn’t even looked at a Windows computer since Windows ME was on the shelf. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/70 "2010-02-21T07:19:59Z")
> [@eno801](#): > > aren’t macs made in china along with almost all laptops? give me something made in japan for build quality. Virtually all hardware is made in China or Taiwan; it may be assembled in Japan or elsewhere. By build quality, I’m talking about the specs for the machine and the attention paid by the company to those specs being met. Apple generally uses higher quality components (fans, case, RAM, etc), and generally designs a higher quality machine. I’ve built my own computers from parts, and when you spec out quality components for a build you can easily spend much more than you would on a Dell/Hpaq/whatever, by sticking with recognized namebrands and buying premium offerings from them. It might not make a difference, but generally you get what you pay for. Buying Apple is, I believe, just that for the most part: paying more to get a somewhat ineffable “more” that’s demonstrable in some but not all ways. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Bith\_Shuffle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@The\_Bith\_Shuffle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Bith_Shuffle)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/71 "2010-02-21T07:33:07Z")
> [@hansel](#): > > Buying Apple is, I believe, just that for the most part: paying more to get a somewhat ineffable “more” that’s demonstrable in some but not all ways. All relevant aspects of this should be detectable by investigative groups who test computer speed, reliability, longevity, and so forth. Is there any solid evidence that Mac computers tend to have these qualities (and other positive qualities) more than similarly-rigged Dell PC counterparts do? ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/72 "2010-02-21T13:27:11Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > versus this really hip looking guy > [Justin Long - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Long) Good enough for Drew Barrymore. > [@mhendo](#): > > Wow, really? _That’s_ your criticism? You are hilarious. One of many criticisms, a shorthand for all that I personally found to be utterly counterintuitive about the Windows OS. I didn’t think anyone really wanted the entire list. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/73 "2010-02-21T15:43:57Z")
> [@in\_hiding](#): > > Mac vs. PC is more a Lifestyle choice. Try out both and see what you like more. If you are used to one and don’t have some real problems with it, stay with it. There is nothing one side _really_ does better. Most people choose the side they **want** to like, as far as I can see. Doesn’t the Mac _really_ do viruses better? What’s it like trying to get Norton Antivirus and Webroot to stop blocking a software install on a Mac? Because, last month, it was a huge pain on a PC. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/74 "2010-02-21T15:48:04Z")
> [@Napier](#): > > Doesn’t the Mac _really_ do viruses better? > > What’s it like trying to get Norton Antivirus and Webroot to stop blocking a software install on a Mac? Because, last month, it was a huge pain on a PC. There is currently no reason to run any AV software on OS X. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/75 "2010-02-21T15:54:13Z")
> [@The\_Bith\_Shuffle](#): > > All relevant aspects of this should be detectable by investigative groups who test computer speed, reliability, longevity, and so forth. Is there any solid evidence that Mac computers tend to have these qualities (and other positive qualities) more than similarly-rigged Dell PC counterparts do? I don’t know how you’d measure something like “it just works”, but in general you’re right, this should be amenable to controlled quantitative investigation. I’m not aware of anything on these lines, just mine and others anecdotal experience. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/76 "2010-02-21T16:26:56Z")
> [@hansel](#): > > I’ll happily pay an extra $350 to get an Apple over a Dell, considering the relative quality of the end product and support from the companies. My extensive experience with Dell through work has thoroughly convinced that, by this comparison, the Apple tax is worth paying. A friend just told me that MacBooks are rumored to be getting an i3/i5 update in the next few weeks - that may narrow the ‘tax’ a bit since they will probably keep the same price points on the MacBook Pro while Dell is currently charging a premium for the update from the Core 2 Duo processors. Also, at an upgrade point like that - you will see some ‘deals’ on the older model MacBook Pros. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/77 "2010-02-21T16:38:26Z")
> [@Turek](#): > > There’s been no end of threads arguing that, for comparable equipment, Macs aren’t any more expensive than Windows machines. That may or may not be true, but I have a computer here on my desk that I am presently assembling from about 15 major components (motherboard, case, RAM, multiple hard drives, RAID, special enclosures, added cards, etc.) and I have no idea how I could build the same functionality in a homebrew Mac. Can you build homebrew Macs? I didn’t think so. Maybe I could _order_ a Mac unit with those parts, but then I wouldn’t be able to easily fix it or upgrade it, since I didn’t assemble it. So I would be paying someone else to put it together, and lose the learning that I normally absorb during assembly. And like all pre-assembled computers, it would probably come loaded with unwanted “features” that I have to find out how to remove or disable. Total hassle. So, for me, the only way I would buy a Mac is if it were _cheaper_ than a PC, or if there was some must-have program that doesn’t run at all on a PC (there are some, I hear). YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![gravitycrash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@gravitycrash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gravitycrash)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/78 "2010-02-21T17:39:54Z")
I’m sure it isn’t just about image and status but reading this thread has confirmed what I already knew. Mac people constantly bring up viruses and malware as one reason to go with Apple. I think the last virus I’ve had was back in 2004. Malware, what’s that? And anyone that is still using Norton deserves what they get. It really isn’t hard to protect a PC nowadays. I’ll admit that back in the day it was bad but come on Mac people,some of you guys are really reaching with the criticism of PC’s. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/79 "2010-02-21T17:51:56Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > One of many criticisms, a shorthand for all that I personally found to be utterly counterintuitive about the Windows OS. But your “shorthand” is completely ridiculous. There’s nothing at all counterintuitive about the feature you mentioned. The Start button is the button you click when you want to do certain things on your Windows machine. Why does it matter if the “something” that you want to do is shut down the computer? It’s no more or less intuitive than clicking on an Apple icon. Anyway, i’m not at all convinced that there’s anything more or less intuitive about either OS. I think it’s more a case of people projecting their own subjective experiences into some sort of objective claim. For me, the windows operating system if far more intuitive and easy to operate than OSX. The difference is that i’m honest enough to admit that the main reason for this is probably because i’ve been using Windows constantly for a long time, whereas i haven’t spent anywhere near as much time with Macs. If you can show me some sort of controlled experiment where people who have no experience with either OS are tested to see which one they find most intuitive, i’ll think about conceding your point. Until then, i’m betting it’s little more than confirmation bias. You want it to be true, so for you, it is. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748/80 "2010-02-21T18:01:33Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > That may or may not be true, but I have a computer here on my desk that I am presently assembling from about 15 major components (motherboard, case, RAM, multiple hard drives, RAID, special enclosures, added cards, etc.) and I have no idea how I could build the same functionality in a homebrew Mac. Can you build homebrew Macs? I didn’t think so. I too have built my last 5 PCs - I just want to control the quality of the individual parts, even though I could get a Dell cheaper. I either bought OEM Windows or used one of my MSDN licenses. You are right, you can’t build a homebrew Mac because Apple does not license OSX separately from the hardware. Sure, you can buy a full install for $129 - but legally, you have to install it on Apple hardware. I could probably hack around it on other hardware, but I choose to respect the license (just as I expect other to license the software that pays my paycheck). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mac-computers-is-it-mostly-just-image-and-status/529748.md?page=5)