Yes. It is. And it’s a factor that means absolutely nothing to me, so why do some people keep repeating it as if it’s going to mean something to me? If I were to “bleat” about Photoshop to someone who never, ever, ever wanted to use Photoshop, I’d be equally as annoying and equally as off-base.
And then there’s the whole thing about stupid newbies (not anyone’s words on this thread, but the word “retarded” was mentioned) which is also irritating.
Were this an email conversation 'twixt you and bleaters, you’d be on-base.
As it’s a message board thread–an inherently public floor–with roughly 6.5 times more views than posts at current, I think you’re at least off in the foul zone, if not in the actual parking lot outside the stadium. So to speak.
But mileages clearly vary; the world will keep on spinning. Carry on.
I prefer the chalkboard and the abacus. A very easy operating system and blue screens or bomb icons are a rarity.
Drastic, I do see what you’re saying, but this discussion is not just about the differences between the two platforms, and why we all have our own preferences. And a lot of us are doing that–just discussing our personal preferences. We are talking about why we like what we like, and that’s cool.
But it has gone beyond that. To quote poor Kinthalis (who honestly, seems like a good-natured fellow, I want to make that really clear), but this is what he wrote previously: (bolding mine)
OK, he does concede that he sees the appeal of the Mac. And I see the appeal of a PC (I own one that I am pretty fond of, as it happens). But it’s the “recommend” word that gets me. And his comments about “You get more with a PC and here’s why.” He’s talking to me (he uses the word “you”, which means me and probably everyone else). And he’s talking about games, even though I keep on repeating that I don’t care and that a lot of other people don’t care. He’s even (bless his heart) suggested that I might start getting into gaming. I mean, it’s sweet on one level, honestly, but it is a waste of time since I have to keep repeating that I don’t give a rat’s ass about games.
But, true, some others might want to know about the gaming thing, and he’s already made his point about games and I’ve already conceded that he’s right about games. PCs are really great with games. So why do we need to cover the ground that we both agree upon? PCs are great with games. We are all in agreement then, right?
So why do I keep on seeing the “bleating” about games as if it is going to make some sort of difference to those who do not care about games? 
I don’t get it.
It’s in the OS 9 (Classic) system folder.
I’m not sure I understand. Windows uses logical file names as well. a .txt file is a text file, a .doc file is a document file, a .exe file is an executable program… can you be more specific?
[QUOTE]
Any well written program outside of some system utilities (like Norton) can be uninstalled by throwing the icon for the program away - no uninstallers, no DLL hell, none of that nonsense.
[QUOTE]
I don’t know, when I want to uninstall a program I go to my desktop shortcut to “Add/Remove programs” and I uninstall it from there. Nothing is left of the program. I do admit that it’s nice to just throw away the icon and uninstall the program, but sometimes I want to get rid of the shortcut but NOT uninstall my program. Anyway, it would save me aprox 2.5 seconds as opposed to windows xp. Not a big deal IMHO.
Most programs ARE one icon ont he desktop or on the start menu. The folders containing program resources ARE available to the end user, but that mis a good thing IMHO. IT is not necessary to touch those files, but you can, if you want to for any reason.
Are you saying Mac OS HIDES these files from the end user? That sucks IMHO!
There are many good graphic printing programs for windows. In fact a friend of mine owns a printing buisness where he prints building layout for the city as well as other buisness advertisments. He uses PC’s in his buisness.
Alright, I suppose saving you the time to read “Do you want to save this file?” Might be a bonus to some…
Wow, this is just nosnense. I can probably count the times I hit the wrong button in my hand. There are also shortcut keys that’ll do the same btw. Oh, and your setup I can also missclick and somehting I didn’t want to do.
Actually you can usually quit a program by hitting Alt + f (for file) then c. Alt-f4 might not be all that logical but once you know it, you know it. Works for anything.
Darn bolding.
Anyway Yosemitebabe:
I’m sorry about bringing up the ever so bothersome gaming aspect of PC’s to the table. Although I do recall you mentining some applications I Don’t care about (like iTunes).
But does that make your point any less valid? No. I realize there are probably some very good apps available ONLY to Mac users. I can see the validity of this point.
YUet you fail to see the validity of MY point. Evben if YOU PERSONALLY do not like games, can you not see that to those of us who do, the PC cna be a boon?
Btw, I do like that so far our debate has remained civil for the most part 
I’ve sene these type of threads be thrown to the pit in the past rather quickly.
It’s in the OS 9 (Classic) system folder. **
[/QUOTE]
Also: System/Library/StartupItems in OS X.
That’s odd. I just hit the “quote” button. My naive trust that the board will ensure correct formatting has been shattered.
Then you might want to look into buying a G5, since it’s the fastest personal computer on the market, it will no doubt beat your current PCs video card into the ground.
And if PCs have such great graphics capabilities, why is it that Macs are the standard computer used in the graphics and publishing industries? It’s easy to see why, when even the graphic icons on the desktop of a Mac beat the hell out of the ones on a PC.
That’s like asking, “Why pay more for a Rolls Royce when you can pay less and have a Yugo?”
Why pay more? Because when it comes to computers, you really do get what you pay for. With a Mac, you get an integrated machine that is far more stable and reliable than the pieced-together-by-a-billion-cut-rate-vendors PC.
Also, I’ve never failed to find any type of software I’ve wanted for my Mac.
(And most importantly, I don’t have to resize my window each time I open another one. I find that extremely annoying. They couldn’t even copy the Mac windows properly.) 
I’ve used computers since 1988, and I lost count of the times that the many PC owners I’ve known have had crashes when simply upgrading system hardware – not to mention that the machines usually have a fatal crash sometime between 6 months to 4 years of being bought. I know more than one person who still owns their first Mac, bought back in the 80s. I don’t know anyone who’s had a PC last more than 3-4 years.
Tesa
But I wasn’t saying that you should care about iTunes. I was talking about me. Me me me me me. 
I was not suggesting that you try out iTunes (but you did suggest I try games) I did not say that “With a Mac, you get this and this…” But you used that phrase in regards to PCs.
I just talked about what I preferred. And I said, “One size does not fit all.” I have iTunes, you have games. I have a Mac, you have a PC. See how nicely that works?
Do you seriously want me to waste my time going through this thread, copying and pasting all the times I conceded that yeah, YEAH, PCs are the thing for games? Do you want me to do that in order to prove to you that there is NO ARGUMENT here that PCs are “it” for games? How many times do I have to agree with you in order for you to stop bringing it up to me, especially after I’ve said that I personally don’t give a damn about games?
Yes, I agree. Truly, I think you are a very good-natured fellow, and I must say I really appreciate that. (Even if I get a little snippy with you sometimes!)
I’m sorry, but that’s just nonsense. Look for some benchmarks in computer review sites (ones that have NOT been tweaked by Apple), and you will see that PC’s come out ahead.
ALso, PC’s are coming into the 64 bit and AGP 16x standard soon. Apple may have beaten PC’s to the 64bit platform by a little bit, but sadly the bench marks tell a different tale on the performance side.
Seriously, the Icons?
Anyway, I don’t think they are the standard. I think they ARE widely used in the graphics industry, but they are NOT the ‘standard’.
Anyway I’m talking about 3d Graphic capability. When it comes to 2D Pc’s can do everything a Mac can.
It’s in the OS 9 (Classic) system folder. **
[/QUOTE]
Then that’s not really an issue with OS X, now is it?
Kinthalis, about the file system…
Applications are a single bundled file called a package (makes sense, huh?). A well designed application will show up in the Applications folder (there is the logical naming) as a single icon. That single file is the application. There is no other files. To uninstall the application, you drag it out of the applications folder, and into the trash. No messy uninstall. Nothing is hidden, it is just laid out in such a fashion as to make more sense.
The Harddrive is listed as Macintosh HD, and it is placed on the desktop.
The harddrive is laid out simply. Opening the Harddrive presents you with a total of 4 folders in a OS X install. Applications are in the Applications folder. OS stuff is in the System folder. User data is contained in the… Users folder. Users of the computer each get a folder in the Users folder that is named after their username. Inside this folder, users can store all of their files. The directories contained within are named stuff like “Pictures” “Movies” “Music”, etc. Preferences and other things of the like are contained in the Library folder.
That’s it.
Compare to windows.
Programs can be in C:\Program Files folder, or just in the C:\ drive (which itself resides in “My Computer.” System stuff can be either in the Windows folder, or strewn across the C:\ drive. Inadvertantly deleting some file named config.sys or autoexec.bat can render the computer unbootable, and the names don’t actually really denote what they do. Files in the Harddrive are strewn about without any real regard to order, and going into Program Files, and deleting an application can easily break your system. Uninstalls can be messy, and result in residual files leftover in various folders, icons leftover, and such. In OS X, the application was uninstalled by you dragging that single icon into the trash, no leftovers.
Without a registry, you don’t have to worry about the leftover registry keys that slow the computer down. In OS X, the application preferences are stored in the Library folder (where prefs and such go) and then inside the Preferences folder.
Simple.
Windows presents you with a veneer of simplicity with the start menu. You see icons in there, and on the desktop. Underhood though, lies a mess of files and folders that simply doesn’t exist on a mac. In Windows, simplicity is a veneer, in a Mac, it permeates the system.
Regarding the “more games” argument, I found this comic strip to be eerily accurate.
That’s just another attention-to-detail thing.
Yes, they are. Unlike you, I actually work in the pre-press printing and graphic design industry. The industry standard is Mac OS. The majority of the industry works on Mac OS. I have contacts at probably three or four dozen newspapers and graphic design houses across the country. I could count on one hand the ones that don’t use Macs.
All of the technology seminars at graphic design and print pre-press conferences expect that you use and proceed from the perspecitive of the Mac OS.
All the big name print houses expect your documents to have been produced on a Mac, unless you specifically tell them otherwise. And God help you if you make your stuff on a Windows computer and don’t let them know: your colors will be wrong and your text will be mis-flowed if the print house doesn’t catch the Windows situation (which they almost always do). All the competent smaller ones that I’ve dealt with are the same.
Ancillary pre-press modules like QuarkXPress, Adobe InDesign or Photoshop plug ins are often released for Mac OS first, since that’s the core market.
Take a look at QuarkXPress: their 5.0 release from last year was not yet updated for Mac OS X (due to Quark’s problematic code base). In the 18 months between 5.0 and the new 6.0 release for Mac OS X, their sales tanked. Why? Because 5.0 didn’t support emerging Mac technologies, and their target market – pre-press professionals and graphic designers – is dominated by Macs.
There is no way that you can support the notion that the pre-print graphic design and pre-press design industries are not Macintosh-centric markets.
Now without ColorSync, they can’t. Not for print, anyway. And in the graphic design market, pre-press print design is where all the money is.
You can muddle by with Windows for graphic design on a website, since those are low-res images where color matching is an untenable proposition. You can muddle by with Windows for graphic design for, say, your company newsletter. Things become problematic, however, when you move into the world of CMYK pre-press design where color matching and proper font metrics become the key to quality output. Windows simply doesn’t cut it.
If I were a gamer, and not a professional pre-press graphic designer or amateur film editor, then I would care about Windows and have a PC. But for what yosemitebabe and I do, a PC simply doesn’t make any sense.
This is what I don’t get. I’m a programmer. Unless the concepts are drastically different for programming apple applications resource files will be REQUIRED for any complex application. Taking a look a photoshop you have a lot of files other than the photoshop.exe. This is a part of programming. The only reason I can think of why this is not so in a Mac is becaue these files are being hidden from the end user. Which is not a good thing IMHO.
Your typical windows user using photoshop however does NOT have to deal with any of those files.
Most pplications install to the program folders directory by default. Although you can opt to change the directory to anything you want (and I have found that ability to be quite useful for a number of reasons).
System files are hidden by default. You CAN make them visible easily, but if you don’t know what config.sys or autoexec.bat are then you probably wouldn’t do this.
This is not the way to delete applications. And if you don’t know what somehting does, why should you delete it? You go into “add/remove programs” and you select your application and delte it. Takes roughly 5 seconds.
And files are NOT “strewn about” the hardrive. They go where they are needed. Applicaitons go in “ProgramFiles”, files you create go into “My Documents” (unless you want to save them elsewhere), system files go in “WINDOWS” directory. What is so ilogical about this??
Maybe in windows 95, but windows XP is quite clean about this. I usually only get a saved documents or saved games folder remnant when deleting an application, but I also usually get aprompt on wether I wan tto leave those folders behind or not.
Registry keys are deleted with an pplicaiton removal. If there ARE some registries left over due to poor programming on the software developer ends of thigns, it’s not hard to find to use Easy Cleaner or some other application to tidy things up. This onw’t be aproblem with your standard user. I do run into this problem since I’m installing and re-installing shareware/beta programs all the time. Your average user need not worry.
Indeed, you certianly make it appear as so.
But as I have illustrated, your ascertions on the user firendliness of Mac OS is based on your outdated, or ignorant info regarding windows XP.
In order to make things more fair in the benchmarks, Apple used GCC (an open source compiler, not one sourced from either Intel, IBM, or Apple) on both systems. Instead of using an Intel compiler on the PC, which would have resulted in higher scores on the PC, Apple used GCC. By the same token, Apple used GCC on the G5, not a platform specific from themselves, or IBM (the company producing the G5)
It should also be noted, that as the default compiler in Linux, GCC has had far more time to be optimized for Intel processors than for PPC processors like used in Apple computers.
While the test results for the PC come in slower than factory specs given by Dell, understand that Dell was using heavily optimized Intel compilers to benchmark the computer, not GCC used by Apple. By not using an Intel compiler on the PC, or, for that matter, an Apple/IBM compiler on the G5, both computers were in a way handicapped. The benchmarks were also performed by a third party, not by Apple. By taking the compilers out of the equation, the benchmarks were actually far closer to an actual hardware test.
A lot of people are complaining because as benchmarked, the Dell came out slower than the Dell specs. This should really come as no surprise, as Dell used the best compilers specifically tweaked to run their best on the computer in order to make it look as fast as humanly possible.
Apple took that advantage away by having both computers benchmarked using third party compilers, and having the benchmarks themselves done by a third party. Even the details of the benchmarks were made available to the public, which is something that companies rarely do. Says something about their faith in the benchmarks, doesn’t it?
Ars Technica has a lot of really detailed information on the G5 processors, and yes, it is that fast. They are fairly platform neutral there, and as such it is a pretty good source of information that isn’t slanted towards PC hardware, or Mac’s. Using info about the benchmarks from PC sites will result in (surprise) a PC slant.
The Intel processors could have gone faster, but by giving the G5 the advantage of a better compiler, it would have gone faster too.
And don’t let the MHZ fool you. Intel designs their processors to run at high clock rates because Intel found that people will buy computers with faster MHZ ratings, thinking them faster. It is no indication of actual work done though. Using Mhz as a benchmark is just like using the max RPM of an engine as a way of defining its performance.
A 9000 RPM motor will look better than a 6700 RPM motor, but that is only when you ignore the horsepower ratings behind them. Intel has people looking at processors based upon their “RPM” rating, not their actual “Horsepower” rating. AMD runs into this problem too, by having processors that are faster than an equivalent Intel, at lower clock rates.
Sure. On Windows, IE is called iexplore.exe in the file system. On the Mac? Internet Explorer. On Windows, there’s winword.exe. On the Mac, there’s Microsoft Word. Outside of the /System folder, you can go into most any folder on your Mac and tell what the file do simply by reading the names of the icons.
That’s an alias. I’m talking about the actual program. On the Mac, you generally deal with the actual program, not an alias (aside from when using the Dock).
But can you just drag that folder to the Recycle Bin to safely delete the program? You can on a Mac. That’s good system design, that’s logical programming.
No. There is only one file. And to delete a program, you simply delete it.
What programs does he print from? Architectural design apps?
What color matching system does he employ? What brand of CMYK press units? What brand of PostScript RIP?
It’s attention to detail. And it’s consistent. Sometimes on Windows, you get the message “Do you want to save this file?” Sometimes you get “Close without saving changes?” WHether you canswer Yes or No can change from program to program.
That can never happen on a properly-designed Mac OS dialogue box.
It was an EXAMPLE of Apple attention to detail. Not a description of a major usability faux pas for Windows.
Sure, but if you miss-click, what happens will less likely be the opposite of what you wanted to happen. If you click at “Close” but hit the yellow button instead, you minimize the window to the Dock. It’s off the screen at least, which is closer to what you wanted than on Windows, where if you mis-click you size the damn thing up to fill the whole screen, which is just a stupid “feature” anyway. There’s no justification for most programs to take up your whole screen.
That’s more steps. Slower. And sometimes it’s x and not c. Not consistent.
So does Command-Q, which is actually logical. What the hell is the logical behind Alt-F4?