# Machetero and Diogenes the Cynic are used cum bags **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 14, 2004, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756 "2004-11-14T20:33:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/201 "2004-11-15T22:36:26Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > “Horny” != “predator”. > > But did you act on **every** urge? Were you **physically** incapable of taking “no” for an answer? Did you score, or attempt to score, **every** time you were alone with a girl? There is such a thing as impulse control. Yes, I controlled myself, but partially that was due to my own fear of consequences. If there had been no consequences I might not have been so circumspect (which doesn’t mean I would have done anything coercive, I just might have been more vigorous in pursuing willing partners). Sure, most guys control themselves to a point, but that doesn’t mean we should remove all legal protections for underage girls and just tell these guys to have at it. Since it’s not possible to legislate in a way that would distinguish between predators and idiots and who’s just a really mature 13 year old we need to err on the side of the vulnerable. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/202 "2004-11-15T22:48:08Z")
What consequences? Just legal consequences? Did you care if the girl herself was willing? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/203 "2004-11-15T22:52:33Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > That would still allow 18 year olds to purchase 14 year olds for sex. How is that not skeevy? 15, and IMHO paying anyone for sex is skeevy. Age has nothing to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/204 "2004-11-15T22:59:00Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > What consequences? Just legal consequences? Did you care if the girl herself was willing? If the girl was underage, then I didn’t care if she was willing, I wasn’t going to go there. It wasn’t just legal consequences that worried me but social ones as well…and family. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/205 "2004-11-15T22:59:43Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > When it comes to young males- say from about 16-30- then yes, men are total horndogs and yes, I include myself. > . Then, speak for yourself! I take offense with your statement. It’s not rethorics. I seriously do. I don’t think I ever deserved to be called so, at any age. And I certainly am not the only one. You should consider that maybe, not everybody is like you, think like you, act like you. Especially if you think you are or were a pig. Besides, it’s similar to stating : “all young girls are sluts”. Apparently, you’re going to teach a healthy view of the world, and in particular of men, to your daughter… ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/206 "2004-11-15T23:03:52Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Oh, and I’d have an absolute cut off of 14, regardless of the age difference. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > > [@Rune](#): > > > > I’m a moron so help me out. At what age do you think a person is adult? Is that 18? I noticed some US states had AoC at 18 – is that what you want? > > Yes, 18. I guess I forgot to say that part. My bad. Can’t make up your mind? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/207 "2004-11-15T23:08:40Z")
No, I made up my mind. I already said that sex with a person under 18 should be a felony if the age difference is more than three years and that it should be a _misdemeanor_ if the age gap is _within_ three years BUT that I would have an abslote cutoff at 14 regardless of the age difference. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/208 "2004-11-15T23:08:57Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I agree that we need to give the same message, but I think that message is “Unsafe and unhealthy sex are bad and can fuck you up. Safe and caring sex is beautiful/wonderful and a part of being human. Oh, and making love is often more satisfying **but casual sex is okay too**.” Bolding mine. Are you fucking kidding me? ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/209 "2004-11-15T23:09:04Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I think the _father_ was the jerk. What kind of responsible parent is gratified by hearing a friend say that he wants to fuck his teenage daughter? Well, I can tell you he’s a damn sight better parent than my own were, at least when it came to sex. He didn’t deny that people get horny at the sight of another human being, he didn’t poison either of his kids about people of the opposite sex, or humiliate them in front of their SO’s for the sport of it, and he didn’t ever demand of his kids why the hell they didn’t get a date like mine did. > [@](#): > > I think we can make it a crime to impregnate an underage girl, no matter how old the guy is, and I think that in most cases the pregnant girl should be given the option of a free abortion or medical care and incentives if she puts the child up for adoption. I also think she needs to be evaluated for her fitness as a parent before she’s permitted custody of the child. Oh yes, because laws work so well at preventing things from happening. I mean, since they passed the laws against drugs, there’s been no problems with illegal drugs whatsoever. :rolleyes: Oh yeah, and how are you going to evaluate someone to see if they’d make a good parent? What criteria are you going to use? Political affiliation? Economic status? Ethnic background? What about the parent’s right to raise the child in the manner they see fit? You going to tell the Amish that they can’t allow their children to get married at 16 or 17? And why should you stop at the age of majority? After all, most children are born to people who are over the age of 18, so if you’re going to be evaluating someone for their “fitness” to be a parent, shouldn’t you go after those most likely to become parents? ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/210 "2004-11-15T23:09:06Z")
I just realized something. **Diogenes** is not a liberal, in the traditional meaning of the word in the US, i.e. Democrat, maybe leaning to the left. On the political scale in most European countries, a Democrat would be slightly right of center. Diogenes is a traditional Socialdemocrat. That means that one of his goals is to protect the public from itself. A strong welfare state is not the only sollution and it can be summed up as such: “What isn’t mandatory is forbidden.” Other signs from the SD is seing the public as a collective, not as individuals. And of course themselves as cognoscenti, the ones who protect the herd. This explains his stance on this issue. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/211 "2004-11-15T23:09:34Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Can’t make up your mind? :dubious: I believe that you are misquoting Dio here. Search the earlier posts for context. Let’s keep this debate above the bar and not pull shit out of our asses please. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/212 "2004-11-15T23:13:22Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Juvie lock up. Kid’s a fucking pig. Ok. Then they’re responsible for their decisions? I believed they were unable to make decisions about their sex life. Which way is it? Are they responsible for their decisions or not? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/213 "2004-11-15T23:13:41Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > No, I made up my mind. I already said that sex with a person under 18 should be a felony if the age difference is more than three years and that it should be a misdemeanor if the age gap is within three years BUT that I would have an abslote cutoff at 14 regardless of the age difference. Ah, gotcha. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/214 "2004-11-15T23:26:13Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > Did you care if the girl herself was willing? Are you serious? A willing girl doesn’t exist. A girl _might_ think she is or was willing, but the truth is that she has been abused when she was small hence is completely fucked up. And generally, she won’t realize she was a victim until Diogenes tells her so. Also, all boys are pigs. They _might_ think they aren’t or weren’t so, but the truth is that they’re are in denial or liars. They _might_ not act on their piggish impulses, but only because they’re affraid of the dire legal consequences, or else they would all be predators fucking 13 y.o… They sometimes won’t understand their true nature until Diogenes tell them so, though. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/215 "2004-11-15T23:26:17Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Are you fucking kidding me? Nope. Dead serious. Casual sex is fine as long as the partners are emotionally safe and practice safe sex. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/216 "2004-11-15T23:27:09Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > If the girl was underage, then I didn’t care if she was willing, I wasn’t going to go there. Okay, so you had a conscience. Good for you. But so might your daughter’s potential dates. And when you say “if the girl was underage”, did this always apply, or just when you came of age? Did you date underage girls after you turned 18? Did you date teenage girls when you were a teenager, but refrain from “going there” simply because they were underage? > [@](#): > > It wasn’t just legal consequences that worried me but social ones as well…and family. Not sure what you mean by “social and family”. And I repeat: did it matter to you or not how the girl felt, and what the consequences would be for her? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/217 "2004-11-16T00:18:50Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Oh yes, because laws work so well at preventing things from happening. I mean, since they passed the laws against drugs, there’s been no problems with illegal drugs whatsoever. :rolleyes: By that logic we shouldn’t have laws against murder because people still commit murder. > [@](#): > > Oh yeah, and how are you going to evaluate someone to see if they’d make a good parent? What criteria are you going to use? The same criteria that are used by CPS and other social service agencies all over the country. It’s not like the governmemnt never has to evaluate parental fitness. > [@the Gaspode](#): > > I just realized something. > Diogenes is not a liberal, in the traditional meaning of the word in the US, i.e. Democrat, maybe leaning to the left. On the political scale in most European countries, a Democrat would be slightly right of center. > > Diogenes is a traditional Socialdemocrat. That means that one of his goals is to protect the public from itself. A strong welfare state is not the only sollution and it can be summed up as such: “What isn’t mandatory is forbidden.” > Other signs from the SD is seing the public as a collective, not as individuals. And of course themselves as cognoscenti, the ones who protect the herd. > > This explains his stance on this issue. Horseshit. I’m a social libertarian. My position on this has nothing to do with imposing morality but with protecting minors from sexual exploitation. > [@](#): > > Ok. Then they’re responsible for their decisions? I believed they were unable to make decisions about their sex life. Which way is it? Are they responsible for their decisions or not? When did I say they weren’t responsible for their decisions? I certainly think that adults who bone children are responsible for their decisions. > [@](#): > > Okay, so you had a conscience. Good for you. But so might your daughter’s potential dates. I’m not willing to count on that without any legal recourse. I’m not sure I get this anyway. A guy who _doesn’t_ exploit my daughter is a guy I have no problem with. > [@](#): > > And when you say “if the girl was underage”, did this always apply, or just when you came of age? Did you date underage girls after you turned 18? Did you date teenage girls when you were a teenager, but refrain from “going there” simply because they were underage? When I was a teenager I didn’t have that much success with girls anyway. I managed to lose my virginity at 17 but the girl was older than me. All throughout my 20’s I played in a lot of rock bands and rock bands attract underage girls. I never dated girls under 18 but there were a couple of close calls at parties where girls who were coming on strong turned out to be underage. Whenever I had even a little doubt I would literally ask to see ID. I would also go around asking others at the party how old she was. If I couldn’t confirm that she was 18, I just wouldn’t go there, no matter how willing she was. Some of my bandmates were not so scrupulous and it bugged me a lot. > [@](#): > > Not sure what you mean by “social and family”. And I repeat: did it matter to you or not how the girl felt, and what the consequences would be for her? Of course. But you have to understand these were just hook ups at band parties. It’s not like they were in love with me. I was kind of a cornball romantic anyway. I always just wanted to find a lifemate and settle down. I was never comfortable with the casual hook ups with girls I didn’t care about. I met my wife when I was 23 and that was that. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/218 "2004-11-16T00:34:29Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Casual sex is fine as long as the partners are emotionally safe and practice safe sex. Out of curiousity, how do you define “emotionally safe”? ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/219 "2004-11-16T00:35:08Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > When I was a teenager I didn’t have that much success with girls anyway. I managed to lose my virginity at 17 but the girl was older than me. You poor man, taken advantage of like that by that cruel woman. I hope she rots in jail. 😃 I know, but I thought I’d beat the rush. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/220 "2004-11-16T00:39:41Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Bolding mine. > > Are you fucking kidding me? Why would he be kidding? Have you ever had casual sex? Have you ever had meaningless sex? Yes, these things happen. Often. All the time. To attempt to legislate it away, or hide it away is to ask for more of the same kinds of trouble we have already. Hidden pregnancies, sexual ignorance, predation. Sam [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756.md?page=12)