# Machetero and Diogenes the Cynic are used cum bags **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 14, 2004, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756 "2004-11-14T20:33:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/281 "2004-11-17T01:31:15Z")
> [@yosemite](#): > > I’m not disagreeing with a lot of the points being made here, but what I want to ask (and what I asked earlier in this thread) was, is the 14-year-old mature enough to deal with the consequences of an unplanned child? I don’t think so, but it’s essentially irrelevant to the issue at hand, since some 14 yo are going to get pregnant, even if you threaten 14 yo having sex with community service. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/282 "2004-11-17T01:36:01Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > That would be because a fat and bald 50 yo having anal sex while dressed in leather and chains with a sweet blue-eyed 12 yo innocent girl probably still playing with her barbie dolls makes Diogenes’ point looks better than a 19 yo boy getting a handjob from his beloved 17 yo girlfriend. Both are equally evil in all circumstances, though. > Next thing you know, adult male predators pigs will have anal sex with 15 yo underaged dogs, or something. You guys are playing the same game, though. You’re trying to frame the most benign examples and then pretend those benign examples are the norm (I was stupid to admit my own history. I should have known it would be used against me). While I will conced that there are benign examples within a narrow range of age, I will _not_ concede that this range is more than tho or three years. I will not concede that it’s not sleazy for a 24 year old to bang a drunk 15 year old. Yes, there’s a gray area for young adults, 18, 19, 20. But there comes a point when it’s time to move on and get your paws off the kiddies. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/283 "2004-11-17T01:38:42Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > [Bullshit.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5495035&postcount=68) Not to mention the fact that it’s yet to be determined what exactly those boys were victims _of_. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/284 "2004-11-17T01:41:52Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I don’t think so, but it’s essentially irrelevant to the issue at hand, since some 14 yo are going to get pregnant, even if you threaten 14 yo having sex with community service. The question I’m asking is is the 14-year-old completely “ready” for sex if they are not “ready” (as clearly many are not) to deal with the possible consequences? It’s all fine for a 14-year-old to say, “I _know_ that I’m ready,” but if they get pregnant (or they get someone else pregnant), how often are they “ready” to be responsible? They’re “ready” for the fun part, but not for the not-so-fun part. And so the 14-year-old’s parents often end up dealing with the consequences of something that their kid felt so “ready” to take on. Is that how it goes? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/285 "2004-11-17T01:48:18Z")
> [@yosemite](#): > > So, if a kid is “ready” to have sex but probably not “ready” to deal with the consequences, are they still “ready” to have sex? Yes. In our societies, sex and pregnancy are for the most part disconnected. Some are going to be pregnant. But you won’t avoid that by telling them that they should never ever have sex. Only by telling them about avoiding pregnancy. > [@](#): > > What do you think the solution should be if, for instance, a 14-year-old gets pregnant (or gets someone else pregnant)? Should they be allowed to keep the baby? Yes. That’s a decision that they will have to live with forever. It must be left up to them. > [@](#): > > Should their parents have a “veto” over them keeping the baby (“We didn’t think you were old enough to have sex or to have a kid, and we don’t want to end up helping you take of your baby”)? Nope, for the reason given above. > [@](#): > > Should they be expected to pay for the support of that baby on their own? (The default assumption is that most adults are expected to support their children, after all, so why not for them too? They say that they’re “ready.”) Yes. Parents always have to foot the bill for the mistakes their children made or for the bad things that happened to them. There’s no difference here. Once again, in our societies, teens are ready and willing to have sex, and quite always do have sex. They’re also not ready and unwilling to be parents, and they rarely become parents. That’s our reality, and we must deal with it. Fortunately, contraception and abortion generally prevent the former to cause the latter. Anyway, if it’s a major issue for the parents, they’ll be able to get rid of their teens and grand-children after some years. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/286 "2004-11-17T01:53:53Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Not to mention the fact that it’s yet to be determined what exactly those boys were victims _of_. Michael Jackson. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/287 "2004-11-17T01:53:56Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Ok _you_ answered it, sort of. I missed that. So 40 is too old. What should be the cut off age for fucking 13 year old boys up the ass? > > (And there is at least one poster in this thread who has said that 40 and 14 is not a necessarily a problem) Why do you keep trying to play the “gay” card? You’ve done it [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5494883&postcount=41), [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5495012&postcount=64), and in the post I’ve quoted. You seem to think that because you’re dumb enough to admit that you’re a hypocritical bastard that the rest of us will be too. Don’t count on it. Frankly, if you’re going to have statues against heterosexual acts with minors, you ought to have the **exact** same statues against homosexual acts, and vice versa. To be honest, though, I don’t really get too freaked about consensual sex in **any** form. The kids wanna play doctor? Let 'em. They’re happy and having fun, too often in this world people don’t get to have fun, let the kids enjoy themselves while they can. Of course, to your mind, they can’t be having fun. One of them has got to be victimizing the other one. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/288 "2004-11-17T01:55:21Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Michael Jackson. I said “what”, not “who”. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/289 "2004-11-17T01:55:32Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Michael Jackson. Is the verdict in? Because I missed that. I didn’t even know the case had gone to trial yet. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/290 "2004-11-17T02:00:16Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I honestly don’t remember. She might have been. > > Anyway, 18 and 17 is not the same as 24 and 15 which is what I was originally bitching about. While on the other hand 24 and 15 is the same as 40 and 12. Anyway, the law says you were abused, so you were abused. By definition. She was a slut and a child rapist, and you’re just in denial if you don’t realize you were. Sorry, but I had to tell you. There’s no excuse for adults fucking children. There must be a cutting line, she didn’t respect the cutting line, so she was a sleazy bitch who couldn’t wait some months more. She should be eating rats in a hole. You won’t get any sympathy for this criminal, but we can certainly recommand you some therapist. Were you abused when you were younger, by the way? I ask because you seem to have been willing to have sex with her, and sexual abuse at a early age is the only explanation I can see for such a unhealthy interest in having sex with adults when you’re only 17. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/291 "2004-11-17T02:05:10Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Why do you keep trying to play the “gay” card? You’ve done it [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5494883&postcount=41), [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5495012&postcount=64), and in the post I’ve quoted. You seem to think that because you’re dumb enough to admit that you’re a hypocritical bastard that the rest of us will be too. Don’t count on it. > Frankly, if you’re going to have statues against heterosexual acts with minors, you ought to have the **exact** same statues against homosexual acts, and vice versa. What “gay” card? I’m not playing any gay card. I was accused early on of only talking about underage girls, so I decided to to throw in some boys to keep it fair. Also, I do think that people seem to get more outraged when boys are molested by men than when girls are molested by men. Michael Jackson is a sicko but Jerry Lee Lewis was just a “bad boy.” I also think that while it’s common for people to talk about how sexually aggressive and willing a 13 or 14 year old girl can be, they _never_ say that about a boy is the victim of a pedophile priest or Michael Jackson. So yes, I was hoping for a shock response, not because I think homosexaulity is worse (come on, have you read my posts for the past two years? If I was any more pro-gay I’d be wearing a dress), but because I think that sex with a 13 year old girls should be perceived just as _badly_ as the molestation of boys. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/292 "2004-11-17T02:05:39Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Yes. In our societies, sex and pregnancy are for the most part disconnected. If they were really disconnected, there would not be so many “surprise” pregnancies. > [@](#): > > Some are going to be pregnant. But you won’t avoid that by telling them that they should never ever have sex. Only by telling them about avoiding pregnancy. True. But you should be able to discourage them from having sex until they are ready to be responsible _on their own_, shouldn’t you? > [@](#): > > Yes. That’s a decision that they will have to live with forever. It must be left up to them. Yes. And they still get to expect others to foot the bill of their decision. Over the strong protestations of those who will be left being responsible. > [@](#): > > Nope, for the reason given above. See above. > [@](#): > > Yes. Parents always have to foot the bill for the mistakes their children made or for the bad things that happened to them. True enough, but the parents have a right to try to prevent them from making a mistake that they (the parents) end up paying for, right? > [@](#): > > Once again, in our societies, teens are ready and willing to have sex, and quite always do have sex. And they expect someone else to foot the bill if they mess up, apparently. > [@](#): > > They’re also not ready and unwilling to be parents, and they rarely become parents. Rarely, but they do. Teenage pregnancy rates are lower than they used to be, but they are still with us. Girls have babies every day, and newsflash: they rarely are supporting that baby on their own. > [@](#): > > That’s our reality, and we must deal with it. Fortunately, contraception and abortion generally prevent the former to cause the latter. But not always. Also, a boy can do all he can on his side to prevent pregnancy, but he has absolutely no say over what the girl wants to do. So no matter how careful he is, he still is at the mercy of her decision (which is how it should be, of course, since it’s her body). > [@](#): > > Anyway, if it’s a major issue for the parents, they’ll be able to get rid of their teens and grand-children after some years. Quite a few years, if the kid ends up having a baby at age 14. Not so many years (or any) if the kid has a baby at age 16 or above. I’m not saying that there’s a whole lot that can be done about it. I don’t want teen moms to be forced to have abortions or to give their kids up for adoption. But I don’t think that some of these scenarios (especially from the younger teens) sounds like “ready”—at least not in a full sense. It sounds like “ready for the stuff I _want_ to be ready for—mommy and daddy can take care the the rest, whether they like it or not.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/293 "2004-11-17T02:08:19Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > While on the other hand 24 and 15 is the same as 40 and 12. > Anyway, the law says you were abused, so you were abused. By definition. She was a slut and a child rapist, and you’re just in denial if you don’t realize you were. Sorry, but I had to tell you. There’s no excuse for adults fucking children. There must be a cutting line, she didn’t respect the cutting line, so she was a sleazy bitch who couldn’t wait some months more. She should be eating rats in a hole. You won’t get any sympathy for this criminal, but we can certainly recommand you some therapist. I already conceded that there was a gray area that examples like mine were mostly benign. > [@](#): > > Were you abused when you were younger, by the way? I ask because you seem to have been willing to have sex with her, and sexual abuse at a early age is the only explanation I can see for such a unhealthy interest in having sex with adults when you’re only 17. You ask this question facetiously but the answer might surprise you. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/294 "2004-11-17T02:12:49Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > **Dio** , when I was eighteen, my 16-year-old girlfriend left me for an older woman, a woman in her mid-twenties…I could have reported the older woman to the courts, and gotten prison time for her. What would the older woman have served time for? And wouldn’t you have been liable to serve time for a similar offence? Could you clarify? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/295 "2004-11-17T02:13:02Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Michael Jackson is a sicko… Until he’s proven guilty of something, Michael Jackson is just a weirdo. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/296 "2004-11-17T02:16:19Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > What “gay” card? I’m not playing any gay card. I was accused early on of only talking about underage girls, so I decided to to throw in some boys to keep it fair. Yeah, but so far, you’ve not mentioned people like Mary Kay LeTourneau as much as you’ve mentioned the gloved one. So you’re playing the gay card. > [@](#): > > Also, I do think that people seem to get more outraged when boys are molested by men than when girls are molested by men. Michael Jackson is a sicko but Jerry Lee Lewis was just a “bad boy.” You think a lot of things that are quite clearly wrong, but it’s obvious by now you’re not paying attention to anyone but yourself. I wonder if your wife is as frustrated with you as the rest of us are? > [@](#): > > I also think that while it’s common for people to talk about how sexually aggressive and willing a 13 or 14 year old girl can be, they _never_ say that about a boy is the victim of a pedophile priest or Michael Jackson. You ever read _Summer of 42_? It’s about a teenage boy who gets the hots for an older woman and pursues her. One of the characters in _American Pie_ hotly pursues an older woman, I don’t see you railing against such things. (Not that I would expect you to, seeing as how you only got your cherry popped by an older woman who was most likely doing a “sympathy fuck” so that you’d chill the fuck out and stop harshing everyone’s buzz at the party.) Mary Kay Letourneau’s beau supposedly pursued her, but I don’t see you talking about her very much. > [@](#): > > So yes, I was hoping for a shock response, not because I think homosexaulity is worse (come on, have you read my posts for the past two years? If I was any more pro-gay I’d be wearing a dress), but because I think that sex with a 13 year old girls should be perceived just as _badly_ as the molestation of boys. You know, it just kind of adds to your hypocrisy that you’d you’d post something about homosexuality simply for shock value. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/297 "2004-11-17T02:16:53Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Until he’s proven guilty of something, Michael Jackson is just a weirdo. I’m talking about public perception, not legal status. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/298 "2004-11-17T02:20:09Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > You know, it just kind of adds to your hypocrisy that you’d you’d post something about homosexuality simply for shock value. Not just for shock value, but in the hope that it might jar somebody into looking at the subject in a different light. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/299 "2004-11-17T02:20:58Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I’m talking about public perception, not legal status. What makes you think I’m only talking about legal status? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/300 "2004-11-17T02:22:22Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > While I will conced that there are benign examples within a narrow range of age, We’re making progresses… > [@](#): > > I will _not_ concede that this range is more than tho or three years. I will not concede that it’s not sleazy for a 24 year old to bang a drunk 15 year old. What about a 24 yo making love with her non-drunk 15 yo boyfriend, instead? It’s _most generally_ sleazy. Not necessarily always, though, IMO. Let’s say that if I knew about such a relationship, I would assume it’s sleazy until proven otherwise. Not that I could do anything about it, since it’s perfectly legal here. Though went I think about it, I remember having been attracted to a girl who was probably around 16 (can’t remember) when I was probably around 25 (can’t remember, either). I didn’t think it was sleazy, then. We found ourselves in the same parties with the same people, so apparently we didn’t notice that much the age difference. So, maybe the “eek” factor comes into play when you grow older and begin to perceive teens as “really young”. Or maybe I was a pig. Or maybe it’s not sleazy, after all. > [@](#): > > Yes, there’s a gray area for young adults, 18, 19, 20. But there comes a point when it’s time to move on and get your paws off the kiddies. 15 yo are not adults, but they aren’t “kiddies”, either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756.md?page=16)