# Machetero and Diogenes the Cynic are used cum bags **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 14, 2004, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756 "2004-11-14T20:33:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/81 "2004-11-15T02:57:00Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > So you want to put the onus on the child to prove he/she was psychologically damaged? Are you kidding? Of course not. I want to put the onus on the prosecutor to prove that harm was being done. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > And _12 year olds_? Seriously? I was trying to pick an age under which is was inconceivable that informed concent could be given and thus the relationship was unambiguously exploitative. Perhaps “puberty” would have been a better choice then giving a specific age. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > For those who think it’s ok to dong 12 year olds :rolleyes: That implies that I think that it’s generally acceptable to “dong” 12 year-olds. I do not. I merely think it’s _possible_ for some hypothetical 12 year old to give consent in a particular set of circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/82 "2004-11-15T02:57:20Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > So you want to put the onus on the child to **prove** he/she was psychologically damaged? Are you kidding? > > And _12 year olds_? Seriously? Say what, homes? Most of the time the young adult will not consider him or herself harmed, so obviously will not _want_ to prove harm. We even have first hand testimony in this thread from both genders that they were not harmed. Now, of course, if there is coercion involved, there’s this little thing call _ **FORCIBLE RAPE LAWS** _ we have on the books to deal with situations like this…you should look them up sometime. :wally ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/83 "2004-11-15T03:03:00Z")
> [@Omega Glory](#): > > I’m okay with the idea of cut offs based on age differences, the one I quoted seems a bit too big though. There’s a lot of changes that go on between middle school and college. The gap seems large enough that it shouldn’t be crossed. I’d agree that age gap is too large. I would probably have 14 as an age below which R&J laws do not apply - though again I am not sure in every case the criminal law is the best way of dealing with all situations where, for example, a 14 year old is sleeping with a 13 year old. But that is where we have to rely on the discretion of DA’s, which is something I am uncomfortable with for many reasons, not least because I have seen too many Bible-thumping DA’s pushing for re-election by not exercising discretion in the right cases. And critical to this is the equalization of the situation for men and women, and for gays and straights. Some states do not criminalize statutory rape of boys in the same way as they do girls. Far more have R&J laws for heterosexuals, but not homosexuals. And that has to change, expecially when we see DAs charging gays for offenses they would ignore in straights. > [@Omega Glory](#): > > The ID thing wasn’t really literal, but thanks for the information it was interesting. I think that a lot of people are getting a raw deal though, and something should be done. Hopefully at some point people will realize that we can’t expect people to be psychic. It’s clearly not as black and white as some people would like to make it out to be. > > And after preview, thanks for responding Tuckerfan. Som people will **always** get a raw deal when age cut offs are concerned. Someone does not become magically capable of driving the day they turn 16. But we need a cut off. And the answer is to be careful when you think you might even be close to that level. So you find her attractive and want to have sex. Maybe you might be better served waiting until you know better. Because, believe me, that night’s fun is not worth 4 to 8 in the state pen, followed by a lifetime of registering as a child sex offender every time you move. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/84 "2004-11-15T03:09:18Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Now, of course, if there is coercion involved, there’s this little thing call _ **FORCIBLE RAPE LAWS** _ we have on the books to deal with situations like this…you should look them up sometime. :wally Sorry, meant to cover this in my previous post, but forgot… One of the reasons we have statutory rape laws is that "forcible’ rape laws don’t cover many of the situations we think should be criminal. They are woefully inadequate. A headmaster in Wyoming (I think, can check if anyone wants a cite) can tell students that unless they have sex with him, they will not graduate, and he has not raped anyone, according to the laws of that state (and probably 47 others). A Pennsylvanian retired man can demand sex from the 15 year old he is the guardian for, telling her he will have her sent back to juvie if she refuses, and he has not raped her. Rape laws that require an element of force are inadequate to deal with the coercion that goes on in the world. I think I am correct in saying that all 50 states require force to be present. New Jersey, however,has defined the act of sexual penetration itself to be sufficiently forceful so as to satisfy that element of the offense. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/85 "2004-11-15T03:17:50Z")
> [@villa](#): > > I didn’t say if strict liability was a good or bad thing. You think it is bad I assume, but don’t assume I am on the same side. Don’t worry, it’s quite obvious you’re more than capable of speaking for yourself, so there’s no reason why I should attempt to put words in your mouth. > [@](#): > > As for the ‘check list’, that’s Antioch College. I don’t know, I’ve just heard it mentioned and discussed. > [@](#): > > Each year the policy requiring affirmative consent is put to the students for re-approval, and each year it has been resoundingly affirmed (according to the reports I have seen - I would obviously welcome any comments from an Antioch College student or alum if I am wrong on this, as I am relying on it quite heavily in some research work). Interesting, but considering some of the scandals that went on at one university where I attended, with the Administration fabricating “approving votes” from the student body, I’m inclined to be suspicious. > [@](#): > > The kids there like it - they suport it for many reasons. Good for them (no, seriously, I mean that, if that’s what they want, then more power to them). > [@](#): > > Asking someone if they want to have sex need not necessarily be unromantic. Agreed. > [@](#): > > If you are too drunk or embarrassed to be asking whether the other party consents to what you are doing, then you should not be having sex in the first place. Agreed and if you’re doing it right, then they won’t be waiting for you to ask. > [@](#): > > And the most important question, “Do you want to have sex?” can be asked in many ways, such as “Do I need to put on a condom?” which, if it is a one-night stand, is a question that you damn well should be asking anyway… > > Communicative sex is better sex. And if you think she would not have sex with you sober, you probably should not be having sex with her drunk either. Yup. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/86 "2004-11-15T03:21:16Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Well, I guess it’s pretty much unanimous. There’s nothing wrong with raping little girsl and anyone who thinks otherwise is an asshole. :rolleyes: > > So does everyone think we should legalize the porking of teenagers? Should it be open season? What should the age be? Is Michael Jackson a victim of an intolerant society? Some of his victims were 13. Dio, you dumb fuck you. I’ve seen you lose your mind when Brutus, Bricker, etc. make these drive by retardations and you go and do the exact same thing. Yes, every single one of us is saying that there is nothing wrong with the raping of little girls. Hell, we love it. We all are laughing at you and thinking to ourselves that you must be jealous because you missed out on that sweet teen poontang. :mad: Do you maybe think that we are saying that there may be a bit more to this than the black & white shit that you are trying to peddle off on us. Maybe you just feel caught on the wrong side of the dogpile this time and feel some sick need to defend your post to your dying breath. Just knock off the third grade debate shit that I quoted. We know that you can do better than that. ---
**Author:** ![stretch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@stretch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stretch)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/87 "2004-11-15T03:58:42Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Well, I guess it’s pretty much unanimous. There’s nothing wrong with raping little girsl and anyone who thinks otherwise is an asshole. :rolleyes: Again, **Dio** , you’re just spewing shit to aggravate those of us calling you to task. So far no one has advocated raping little girls or anything close to it. Many of us have asked that you wait for further information before castigating someone for doing something. Others, like me, have stated our opinion that sometimes people under the legal age of consent can give real world consent that could get some other person in trouble. Again, I consented (real world sense of the world) to sex with people who were thereby legally guilty of statuatory rape. More than once and in multiple circumstances. Those men did not deserve to go to jail or have their lives ruined, IMO/E. In this case, \*\*neuroman’s \*\* friend may be a heinous predator who should rot in jail for the rest of his natural life. Or he may be a guy who is caught up in something caused by his idoicy. Either way, \*\*neuroman \*\* is trying to be a stand-up guy and good friend by being there for the guy until he knows that there is good reason to write him off. Good for you, **neuroman**. And I’m out of here–I feel no need to continue discussing this issue with you, \*\*Dio \*\*, as my main point in joining this thread was to agree that you were being a prick in the original thread. You’ve apologized for that. Plus, I have a puppy I’m housebreaking and it’s hard to keep up with threads. I think she’s peeing right now. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/88 "2004-11-15T04:01:02Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > So how about a 14 year old everybody? 13? 12? > > **Athena** , I’m sorry you were exploited that way and the guy who raped you deserves to be eating rats in a cell right now. **Dio** … 1)Is there a possibility that a 16 year old could possibly be emotionally able to give consent? 1. Since [the age of consent varies greatly from country to country and state to state](http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm) is there a possibility that there isn’t a firm generality that may be extended to all individuals? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/89 "2004-11-15T04:03:17Z")
I didn’t mean they were the _only_ extant laws that could apply to abusive power relationships with young adults. Sexual harassment laws spring to mind… ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/90 "2004-11-15T04:08:56Z")
Sexual Harrasment laws? Not criminal, and meaningless if he is judgment proof. I think it a little odd that you would call a man who says he he will prevent 17 year olds from graduating high school unless they put out a sexual harrasser rather than a rapist. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/91 "2004-11-15T04:22:11Z")
Criminal Sexual Perverts and the folks who love them, make excuses for them, and some who probably are them. It’s a pitiful world filled with real “cum bags,” and it’s apparent to anyone with any sense, maturity, or moral compass that its not me or anyone else who isn’t a big fan of adults fucking young minors. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/92 "2004-11-15T04:29:09Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > **Dio** … > > 1)Is there a possibility that a 16 year old could possibly be emotionally able to give consent? > > 1. Since [the age of consent varies greatly from country to country and state to state](http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm) is there a possibility that there isn’t a firm generality that may be extended to all individuals? Here’s the thing. It’s always going to be possible to find exceptions and specific situations which don’t necessarily involve exploitation…BUT…when it comes to legislation, you have to pick a line and stick with it. I think the legislation has to err on the side of protecting minors. You can’t have laws that say “It shall be illegal to dork any person under the age of 16 years UNLESS said person is really mature for her age.” You _have_ to generalize, and you have to do it in such away that errs on the side of shielding those who are the most vulnerable. I gues in a way you could compare it to driving drunk. Some people acn do it just fine. That doesn’t mean that it should be legal and it doesn’t mean it isn’t stupid and reckless. ---
**Author:** ![elfbabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b782af/32.png) [@elfbabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfbabe)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/93 "2004-11-15T04:29:46Z")
> [@Athena](#): > > When I was 16, I had a boyfriend who was 3 or 4 years older than I, and yeah, we jumped in bed like hot bunnies anytime we could. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Athena, I’m sorry you were exploited that way and the guy who raped you deserves to be eating rats in a cell right now. As I’m sure you’re aware, more activities than just intercourse are covered by age of consent and sexual assault laws. Therefore, I’ve taken the precaution of informing my ex-boyfriend, a very nice, slightly older guy who was the recipient of my enthusiastic attentions when I was sixteen, that you think he’s a rapist and that he deserves to be eating rats in a cell right now. He was very, very confused. Now **Qadgop** , I DO hope you have no intention of going around and prosecuting anyone I dated before the age of eighteen… ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/94 "2004-11-15T04:30:31Z")
> [@Machetero](#): > > Criminal Sexual Perverts and the folks who love them, make excuses for them, and some who probably are them. It’s a pitiful world filled with real “cum bags,” and it’s apparent to anyone with any sense, maturity, or moral compass that its not me or anyone else who isn’t a big fan of adults fucking young minors. :rolleyes: Allow me to append your signature: > [@Machetero's signature](#): > > Just because it’s legal, doesn’t make it right. Just because it’s illegal, doesn’t make it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/95 "2004-11-15T04:37:48Z")
> [@elfbabe](#): > > Now **Qadgop** , I DO hope you have no intention of going around and prosecuting anyone I dated before the age of eighteen… Remember that oldies were once young. Who knows what young Mercotans got up to? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/96 "2004-11-15T04:38:55Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Here’s the thing. It’s always going to be possible to find exceptions and specific situations which don’t necessarily involve exploitation…BUT…when it comes to legislation, you have to pick a line and stick with it. I think the legislation has to err on the side of protecting minors. You can’t have laws that say “It shall be illegal to dork any person under the age of 16 years UNLESS said person is really mature for her age.” You _have_ to generalize, and you have to do it in such away that errs on the side of shielding those who are the most vulnerable. Agreed. But aren’t law and morality different things? Is it possible that a 16 year old could give consent, in the real-and-not-legal sense of the term? If, for instance, a 20 year old man slept with a girl who was 16, would he be scum in your book? What if 16 was the age of consent for his state? What if the age was 17, but she was a week away from her 17th birthday? What if she went out of her way to lie and trick him, down to a fake ID? N.B. I am not endorsing this or saying it is okay. And yes, the unfortunate nature of legislating absolutes is that people get fucked (no pun intended) by the cutoff. But there is a difference between saying those under 18 aren’t legally able to vote, and those under 18 aren’t emotionally able to vote. The same goes for sex, or driving, or balancing a checkbook, etc… ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/97 "2004-11-15T04:40:29Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I gues in a way you could compare it to driving drunk. Some people acn do it just fine. That doesn’t mean that it should be legal and it doesn’t mean it isn’t stupid and reckless. Only driving drunk is (usually) a misdeamenor that most people can personally and financially “get over,” whereas a felony sex offense is, given the irrational attitude the American public seems to have on the topic, _not_ something that one is likely to get over. It’s gonna follow the person around for life. I think destroying the life of someone who did no harm is wrong. Prove that the adolescent was actually harmed or coerced. In the clear-cut cases of wrong-doing (i.e., an authority figure, someone targetting under-age partners and abandoning them, etc.) this should be easy to prove. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/98 "2004-11-15T04:46:20Z")
> [@Seven](#): > > I could also mean this girl was two weeks from being 16 and the guy one week into being 20. It could also mean this girl JUST turned 15 and the guy was one week away from being 30. Hopefully, **neuroman** will tell us his friend’s specific age. > [@](#): > > The fact is we don’t know any details which make it hard to accuse anyone of anything other then he got caught with his cock in someone. Even then we don’t know the details of their sexual activity together. Was it one time? Over the course of a few weeks? Months? Were the parents ok with it but someone else complained? Did the girl complain only after the guy tried to break it off? Did he even do it? Perhaps he made out with the chick and later found out she was 15 and stopped so she decided to teach him a lesson and call the cops. The fact remains, we don’t have a fucking clue. In the other thread, **neuroman** said it happened “at or after a party”, and that alcohol was involved. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/99 "2004-11-15T05:33:30Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > So how about a 14 year old everybody? 13? 12? Why debate the age of the girl when the issue is the assholery of you? Keep it up, though. We need left-wing nutcases to help strike a balance with our right-wing nutcases. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/100 "2004-11-15T05:43:24Z")
Condemning statory rape is “left wing?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756.md?page=6)