# Machetero and Diogenes the Cynic are used cum bags **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 14, 2004, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756 "2004-11-14T20:33:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/101 "2004-11-15T05:51:21Z")
Well, I’m of two minds. On one hand, I think Diogenes has horribly overblown this whole thing. Being stupid or not diligent enough in _confirming_ someone’s age (which very likely happened in this case) does not equal “pervert who deserves to rot in jail with all the other rapists.” It means the guy is stupid. Foolhardy. Selfishly stupid, very likely. He deserves a scare—perhaps a big one. But he’d not be an _eeevvvvvilll_ rapist, at least not in the context we’re thinking of (_knowingly_ manipulating or forcing an innocent who is not capable of giving consent). However, there’s something a little creepy about saying that just because they “seem” old enough, or they gave consent, it’s okay. There are plenty of young people who _seem_ mature enough, and yeah, they consented, but they seriously are just too clueless to really know what the consequences are. For instance, I think age 12 is _waaaay_ too young. What if that kid gets pregnant? Has a baby? Is that 12-year-old capable of taking care of that child (providing that they don’t get an abortion or give it up for adoption)? Do they really _comprehend_ the risks and possible consequences of sex? Sure, they consent to it—they _want_ it—but they really don’t comprehend. We’ve seen this repeatedly. 12-year-old girls want to have a baby of their own, so they consent to sex. Of course they can’t really comprehend what caring for a baby really means and as soon as the child arrives they’re over their head and their life is somewhat screwed, but hey. They _consented_ to the sex, so that makes it okay, doesn’t it? Not as far as I’m concerned. So I’m with Diogenes as far as that issue goes. But I don’t share his outrage about this specific guy (at least not yet) because it sounds like it’s quite likely the guy was just incredibly **STUPID** and **FOOLISH**. For that (_ **if** _ that’s the case) he deserves to have the shit scared out of him—perhaps some probation or something—but come _on_. It’s totally going overboard to want to lock him up and throw away the key. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/102 "2004-11-15T05:59:46Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > So if this had been a 15 year old boy instead of a girl, would you all feel the same way? How about a 14 year old boy? 13? What’s the cut off? If I made the laws, 16 would be the general age of consent. But it would be ok as young as 14 as long as the older party is not more than 4 years older. Having sex with a 14 or 15 year old would be a **misdeamenor** if you are 5+ years older. Having sex with someone under 14 would be a felony, but there’d be an allowable difference of 3 years. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/103 "2004-11-15T06:06:02Z")
[QUOTE=Blalron} Having sex with a 14 or 15 year old would be a **misdeamenor** if you are 5+ years older. [/QUOTE] A 40 year old having sex with someone on her 14th birthday would only be committing a misdemeanor? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/104 "2004-11-15T06:12:36Z")
> [@villa](#): > > A 40 year old having sex with someone on her 14th birthday would only be committing a misdemeanor? A misdeamenor can be any punishment short of a year in prison. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/105 "2004-11-15T06:12:49Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > So how about a 14 year old everybody? 13? 12? > > **Athena** , I’m sorry you were exploited that way and the guy who raped you deserves to be eating rats in a cell right now. Dude, seriously, you’re just trying to get a rise out of people with this bullshit. I agree with you on a lot of political stuff, but when it comes to this sex and victims thing, you’ve apparently got some big hangups to deal with. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/106 "2004-11-15T06:14:09Z")
Expanding upon my answer, if this 40 year old is in a position of authority over the 14 year old (such as a teacher) I’d make it a felony. ---
**Author:** ![elfbabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b782af/32.png) [@elfbabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfbabe)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/107 "2004-11-15T06:15:00Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > Remember that oldies were once young. Who knows what young Mercotans got up to? He and Mrs. **Mercotan** met when they were fifteen. I try not to think about it too much. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/108 "2004-11-15T06:18:10Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > A misdeamenor can be any punishment short of a year in prison. I knew that. Strikes me as an awfully low tariff for that offense, given the overall legal structure. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/109 "2004-11-15T06:20:59Z")
> [@elfbabe](#): > > He and Mrs. **Mercotan** met when they were fifteen. I try not to think about it too much. 😃 I imagine it was all very healthy - Tolkein readings and anatomological chit-chat. ---
**Author:** ![stately\_plump\_buck\_mulligan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/858c86/32.png) [@stately\_plump\_buck\_mulligan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stately_plump_buck_mulligan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/110 "2004-11-15T06:48:01Z")
**Diogenes** , as a female who was below my state’s age of consent far more recently than I’d like to admit, I think you’re doing a pitiful injustice to teenage girls and our possible maturity levels. By painting every woman who’s had consentual sex with an older guy while she was under age as a victim, and her partner, a hideous criminal, you deny our ability to think for ourselves and make decisions about our sex lives. You’re saying that at the age of fifteen, all girls must be witless little field mice, certainly not mature enough to have sexual relations with someone a few years older than us without it being labeled “child rape.” Why must you insult us so? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/111 "2004-11-15T06:49:01Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Here’s the thing. It’s always going to be possible to find exceptions and specific situations which don’t necessarily involve exploitation…BUT…when it comes to legislation, you have to pick a line and stick with it. I think the legislation has to err on the side of protecting minors. You can’t have laws that say “It shall be illegal to dork any person under the age of 16 years UNLESS said person is really mature for her age.” You _have_ to generalize, and you have to do it in such away that errs on the side of shielding those who are the most vulnerable. This is a very reasonable position. What I want to know is, how do you go from this to “The guy’s a predatory sleeze who deserves to rot in prison for the rest of his life”? The guy broke the law. He’s going to have to be punished for that. Sucks to be him. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that he’s the scum of the Earth. There are plenty of scenarios in which this guy didn’t mean to cause an harm, and by your own admission, there are scenarios where he _didn’t_ cause any harm: the aforementioned “exceptions and specific situations.” This girl was sixteen, right? In that state, what he did was illegal. There are a lot of states in the Union, not to mention the entire nation of Canada, where it would have been perfectly legal for him to fuck this girl. Is he a sexually predator who has emotionally scared this girl if he fucks her in Ontario? If so, why isn’t there a law against it? These laws are guidelines: they’re best guesses at what the minimum safe age for sexual activity should be, because it’s different for every person. Some people, yeah, it might very well be as young as twelve. Other people are _never_ mature enough to have sex. The law takes its best guess, and it usually errs on the side of caution to protect as many innocents as possible. But that doesn’t make everyone who breaks the law evil, or immoral, or (needless to say) a rapist. It just makes them, at bare minimum, stupid. And I’m not saying it’s okay to fuck fourteen year olds. Yeah, it’s possible that a specific fourteen year-old is mature enough to make a responsible decision about sex. But the law says no, and it’s not the responsibility of individual citizens to decide when laws do or do not apply. And while the legal repurcussions on this guy are going to be deservedly more severe, it is entirely possible that he bears no more moral culpability for this action than a guy who decides that a 55 MPH speed limit is just too slow, and it’s perfectly safe to do 80 down the freeway. He’s not acting out of malice, and he might even be right, but that doesn’t excuse breaking the law. ---
**Author:** ![zoogirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b9bd4f/32.png) [@zoogirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoogirl)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/112 "2004-11-15T06:50:39Z")
FWIW, I met my first boyfriend when I was fourteen, started "going steady’ with him almost a year later and began having sex a year after that. I was sixteen and a half, he was a month short of twenty. We were the slowest couple around at that time. Most of my friends lost their virginity at about 13, to guys in their early twenties. This was just normal for that place and time. (Early/mid Seventies.) Multiple partners weren’t just the norm, they were a badge of honor. Sex was a game. It was almost a competition to see who and how many you could nail. Keep in mind, this is the girls I’m talking about. One friend used to actively seek out men, usually by hitchiking, and take them home. After sex, she’d tell them how old she really was. By fourteen she could pass for twenty or so. She ended up pregnant at fifteen and married at sixteen, to a guy in his mid-twenties. So, you see, all “little” girls aren’t sweet innocent angels. Some of 'em are more predatory than any guy I’ve met. Trust me on that! Oh yeah, about my “exploiter”? We were a couple until I was twenty and then we just broke up. I met mr zoogirl and he never had a steady relationship again. We were the best of friends and had a good relationship until he passed away back in '91 at the age of 34. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/113 "2004-11-15T06:55:53Z")
**Stately** : not to put words in **dio’s** mouth or anything, but I can’t imagine it’d be easy to raise a daughter. I think his concern is honestly out of, well, concern. I know that when I was younger I was less than honest to or caring of my partners, and while a daughter of mine might very well be mature enough to handle her sexuality, I’d still worry that she simply didn’t have the decision making facilities to evalutate her partners well. There are plenty of guys, of all ages, who’ll take advantage of naivate. And less be frank here, no matter how mature or good a judge of character someone is, there’s no substitute for experience. Although, as should be evident, I don’t hold nearly as extreme a position as **Dio** ---
**Author:** ![stately\_plump\_buck\_mulligan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/858c86/32.png) [@stately\_plump\_buck\_mulligan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stately_plump_buck_mulligan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/114 "2004-11-15T07:13:14Z")
I can totally understand the concerned father viewpoint. Have been frustrated into wall-punching frenzies because of it, but I understand it. But concerned father angles work better when they go something like, “Look, there are some real douche nozzles out there, and I know because I used to be one of them, and here is my sagely advice” rather than “You are too immature to know what’s good for you, and on top of it, anyone who would dare think about touching you is a predatory douche nozzle who should have maggots eat his brain from the inside out while being raped by Bubba in a medieval dungeon setting, and no, there are no exceptions. Go play with your Barbies until your eighteenth birthday.” Not that I’m putting words in anyone’s mouth, either. What got me was the extremety of his arguments, and the way in which he seemed to dismiss an underage girl’s ability to make decisions about her body and life, _insisting_ that those who had had sex with legal adults were victims of perverted-ass sexual predators. **Miller** , that was a well-worded post. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/115 "2004-11-15T07:15:15Z")
I want to make a few things clear: I never said the dude should get _life_, just that I didn’t feel sorry for him for whatever time he did get. **FinnAgain** is correct. I have a daughter and that colors my views. There’s nothing like having a daughter to make you acutely aware that male = pig. I find all the talk about predatory 13 year olds rather disturbing and misogynist. A 13 or 14 year old girl who is that aggressively promiscuous with adults (or even other kids for that matter) is almost always a victim of earlier sexual abuse. Even if a 13 year old is sexually aggressive, that doesn’t make it ok for an adult to stick his dick in him/her. There is no reason that anyone _must_ drill a teenager. No adult is being unfairly victimized if he is not permitted to place his penis inside the body of a minor. It is the _adult’s_ responsibility to know what he’s putting his cock in. It is not the responsibility of a minor to inform him or to tell him the truth. I am personally creeped out by adults who are unable to form sexual relationships with partners who can vote and don’t have curfews. No adult should have any serious interest in a high school girl. It’s skeevy, skeevy skeevy. It’s loser behavior at the very least and predatory at worst. Have I been over the top in my condemnations? I suppose so. That’s just my personality. I get emotional. I hyperbolize…and I have a daughter. ---
**Author:** ![stately\_plump\_buck\_mulligan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/858c86/32.png) [@stately\_plump\_buck\_mulligan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stately_plump_buck_mulligan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/116 "2004-11-15T07:22:44Z")
[quotes] …and I have a daughter. [/quotes] _scales fall from eyes_ The light! ---
**Author:** ![stately\_plump\_buck\_mulligan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/858c86/32.png) [@stately\_plump\_buck\_mulligan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stately_plump_buck_mulligan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/117 "2004-11-15T07:23:50Z")
_s’s fall from within brackets_ The coding! ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/118 "2004-11-15T07:38:04Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Condemning statory rape is “left wing?” No, but you are one of our resident left-wing nutcases. Condemning statutory rape has nothing to do with it. Do you really go out of your way to be shrill and obtuse at every turn? Because it sure seems so. ---
**Author:** ![MysteryFellow63427](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e4f/32.png) [@MysteryFellow63427](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MysteryFellow63427)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/119 "2004-11-15T07:39:29Z")
> [@dre2xl](#): > > This is the lamest pitting of DtC I’ve ever seen. > > I agree, once you took sides in this case, you lost your right to criticize others for taking a side. > > Come on. Once again we have a case of someone not reading or not understanding my OP. I wasn’t pitting **Diogenes** for taking a side. I was pitting him for ignoring my request and crapping on my thread. He has since apologized for not reading my warning, which I accept, and if I may sermonize for a brief moment, I think the bare minimum you should do before making any comment of substance in a thread is reading the _entire_ OP. I can’t even make sense of **Machetero’s** post in this thread, so maybe I called it wrong on him and should revert to hypothesis 1- failure to understand the english language. For the curious, my friend was 24 at the time. The debate in here regarding age of consent is interesting, but I don’t really want to get more into the specifics of the case. Both sides have a point. On one hand, we want to protect our children from predation. On the other, it seems absurd to lock up a high school senior for having sex with a high school sophomore. If you care to take a look at [AgeOfConsent.com’s chart](http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm), you will see a wide range of legal ages for consensual sex. There are different standards across the globe, and I’m not sure which is “right.” As another poster pointed out, when you have strict age limits, **someone** is going to get screwed. My personal opinion is that age 16 would be a very safe minimum age in all U.S. states. Multiple years in prison for uncoerced (i.e., no one is in a position of power such as a supervisor or a school principal), consensual sex with a fifteen year old seems draconian. For the wordsmiths, I thought the word “scumbag” derived from used cum bag. It sure sounds like it, at least. And if not, used cum bag was still more interesting and fun. ---
**Author:** ![Hunter\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@Hunter\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hunter_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756/120 "2004-11-15T07:44:07Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I find all the talk about predatory 13 year olds rather disturbing **and misogynist**. …which is kind of odd, since the most strongly-worded comment about predatory 13 year olds was from a female. > [@](#): > > A 13 or 14 year old girl who is that aggressively promiscuous with adults (or even other kids for that matter) is almost always a victim of earlier sexual abuse. Cite? (seriously–I’d like to see what kind of data there is on this) > [@](#): > > It is the _adult’s_ responsibility to know what he’s putting his cock in. It is not the responsibility of a minor to inform him or to tell him the truth. So what level of verification is appropriate? Should I ask for ID? Should I buy one of those UV flashlights to check for fake ID? Should I drive her down to the county hall of records and look up her birth certificate? Sure, I’m skeeved out as much as the next person by predatory acts, but I also realize that there are shades of gray. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machetero-and-diogenes-the-cynic-are-used-cum-bags/274756.md?page=7)