# "machine" gun versus "submachine" gun **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 21, 2015, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-gun-versus-submachine-gun/710482 "2015-01-21T13:46:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![harmonicamoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@harmonicamoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harmonicamoon)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-gun-versus-submachine-gun/710482/61 "2015-01-24T19:27:38Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Gangsta! > > Isn’t that way of holding the weapon ridiculed for the inaccuracy of fire? > > [When did that become an affectation of gangsta, anyway?] As I remember, when you fired it perpendicular to the earth, it tended to ride up into the sky. It was very light. If you held it parallel to the ground, it traveled sideways. So, if there were a group of targets, it would spray them better. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-gun-versus-submachine-gun/710482/62 "2015-01-24T19:31:32Z")
But shouldn’t the weapon’s butt stock be pressed firmly to your shoulder or hip? How do you do that while holding it sideways? ---
**Author:** ![harmonicamoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@harmonicamoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harmonicamoon)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-gun-versus-submachine-gun/710482/63 "2015-01-24T19:59:03Z")
It didn’t have a great deal of kick. But it was a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-gun-versus-submachine-gun/710482/64 "2015-01-24T20:05:45Z")
The M-3 was issued to crewmen for shooting people attempting to climb on their vehicles. It doesn’t take a lot of accuracy to hit a man sized target at a distance of less than fifteen feet. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-gun-versus-submachine-gun/710482/65 "2015-01-26T17:03:31Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > But shouldn’t the weapon’s butt stock be pressed firmly to your shoulder or hip? How do you do that while holding it sideways? It’s an equal and opposite reaction kind of thing. The overall weight of a firearm will make a huge difference in the felt recoil and actual recoil. A light weigh firearm, firing a high-velocity, light-weight bullet can kick as much, or more, than a heavy firearm firing a magnum load. Generally-speaking, the M-3 weighs over 8 lbs, has an 8" barrel (higher velocity) and usually fires a 230gr, .45 ACP round, at over 900 fps. The 5" barrel, M1911 Colt weighs around 2.5 lbs, and fires the same .45 ACP round under 900 fps. Assuming that the M1911’s felt recoil is within the personal limits of a shooter, the M-3, which weighs over 3x more, would have a lot less felt recoil. At least when you’re firing one shot at a time. - \*Interesting read including a Handgun Recoil Table Handgun Recoil Table By Chuck Hawks\* [http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun\_recoil\_table.htm](http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_recoil_table.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-gun-versus-submachine-gun/710482/66 "2015-01-26T18:58:46Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > VERY close combat. They were also inaccurate, difficult to reload, and often misfired. That’s why I say they were not a serious weapon. They had a brief period of military effectiveness - see the caracole. [http://www.investigationsofadog.co.uk/2012/08/21/cavalry-tactics-the-caracole/](http://www.investigationsofadog.co.uk/2012/08/21/cavalry-tactics-the-caracole/) The reason it could work: pistols wielded by cavalry did not need to have a long range - just longer than that of the pike: > [@](#): > > In the 16th century, infantry formations often consisted of big blocks of pikemen with smaller groups of arquebusiers on the wings (these were infantry literally armed with the arquebus, not the 17th century cavalry who were called that but didn’t carry an arquebus). Rogers has worked out that because the pike blocks were so wide, and because the arquebus had a fairly short effective range, there could have been a gap in the middle where the fire from the wings couldn’t reach. Reiters could ride into this gap, shoot their pistols at the pikemen, then retire and reload. Depending on the size of the gap, this may have required advancing in single file instead of a whole rank at a time. In any case, it offered an easy way for cavalry to inflict casualties on infantry. Pistols had a shorter range than arquebuses or muskets, but they only had to shoot further than the length of a pike. Rogers didn’t explicitly go into when or why the caracole stopped being used, but extrapolating from the rest of his essay, it seems to me that infantry would have been much better able to counter it by the early 17th century. Muskets replaced arquebuses, giving the shot a longer range; the new Dutch and Swedish systems of infantry drill used smaller battalions (David Lawrence has proved to my satisfaction that these existed); and the ratio of muskets to pikes generally went up. These changes almost certainly closed the gap in the middle, making it impossible for cavalry to get free hits on the pikemen. The caracole may well have become obsolete as an anti-infantry tactic even before Gustavus Adolphus changed anything. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-gun-versus-submachine-gun/710482/67 "2015-01-26T20:57:43Z")
I thought this was fiction–it’s the first bad guy weapon in _Skyfall_–but IMFDB tells me it’s a Glock 18 with a Beta 100-round mag. I then that _that_ miscegenation was fiction, until I saw [this guy](http://youtu.be/tmrggqzwhFc) emptying one, at 0:36. You guys. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-gun-versus-submachine-gun/710482/68 "2015-01-26T22:30:49Z")
How in the wide world of sports would you carry that thing with the magazine loaded? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-gun-versus-submachine-gun/710482/69 "2015-01-27T00:19:05Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > How in the wide world of sports would you carry that thing with the magazine loaded? Once you’ve put the magazine in, who’s going to stop you from open carrying? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-gun-versus-submachine-gun/710482/70 "2015-01-27T09:39:02Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > How in the wide world of sports would you carry that thing with the magazine loaded? Strenuously, given [the manufacturer claims it weighs 4.6 lbs](https://www.betaco.com/cmag_faq.asp?pid=2) for the 5.56 NATO variant. They mention [that an empty 9mm magazine weighs 2.2 lbs.](https://www.betaco.com/cmag_specifications.asp) Add to that [a ballpark weight of 2.6 lbs](http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=628973) for 100 rounds of 115 gr FMJ 9mm, and I get 4.8 lbs. Which is comfortably more than [the 1.3- 1.4 lbs the pistol itself weighs](http://www.glocktalk.com/wiki/index.php/The_Glock_18_Pistol). I imagine it feels weird as hell to fire, like a cross between a boat anchor and a fire hose. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-gun-versus-submachine-gun/710482/71 "2015-01-27T10:01:23Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > It’s an equal and opposite reaction kind of thing. The overall weight of a firearm will make a huge difference in the felt recoil and actual recoil. A light weigh firearm, firing a high-velocity, light-weight bullet can kick as much, or more, than a heavy firearm firing a magnum load. > > Generally-speaking, the M-3 weighs over 8 lbs, has an 8" barrel (higher velocity) and usually fires a 230gr, .45 ACP round, at over 900 fps. > > The 5" barrel, M1911 Colt weighs around 2.5 lbs, and fires the same .45 ACP round under 900 fps. > > Assuming that the M1911’s felt recoil is within the personal limits of a shooter, the M-3, which weighs over 3x more, would have a lot less felt recoil. At least when you’re firing one shot at a time. > > - \*Interesting read including a Handgun Recoil Table > > Handgun Recoil Table > By Chuck Hawks\* > > [Handgun Recoil Table](http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_recoil_table.htm) What I asked was how, physically, do you hold a weapon sideways? You can’t fire from the hip, obviously, so is the stock pressed sideways across your shoulder and upper chest, or do you fire with the stock folded? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-gun-versus-submachine-gun/710482/72 "2015-01-27T15:23:34Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > What I asked was how, physically, do you hold a weapon sideways? You can’t fire from the hip, obviously, so is the stock pressed sideways across your shoulder and upper chest, or do you fire with the stock folded? Neither, the butt of the M-3 stock does not have to be pressed firmly into your shoulder or hip. Why? Because the cartridge has relatively low recoil (compared to a high velocity rifle round), and the M-3 weighs as much as a rifle (8.5+lbs). The M-3 can easily be fired with one hand. The M-3 stock doesn’t fold. The stock on the original M-3, or M-3A1, is made of heavy wire and slides back and forth. Back, to allow the butt to be held against the shoulder for better control, or left forward, for ease of carry and firing one-handed. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-gun-versus-submachine-gun/710482/73 "2015-01-27T15:39:16Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Neither, the butt of the M-3 stock does not have to be pressed firmly into your shoulder or hip. Why? Because the cartridge has relatively low recoil (compared to a high velocity rifle round), and the M-3 weighs as much as a rifle (8.5+lbs). The M-3 can easily be fired with one hand. > > The M-3 stock doesn’t fold. The stock on the original M-3, or M-3A1, is made of heavy wire and slides back and forth. Back, to allow the butt to be held against the shoulder for better control, or left forward, for ease of carry and firing one-handed. Right. This isn’t a sharpshooter rifle. It’s a handheld “spray and pray” weapon, like the Soviet PPSh and British Sten. Inaccurate as hell, the point is to get as many bullets as you can in the direction of the enemy in hopes that a few will hit. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-gun-versus-submachine-gun/710482/74 "2015-01-28T01:53:39Z")
Or get him to keep his head down, as in suppress his ass. ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-gun-versus-submachine-gun/710482/75 "2015-01-28T11:38:10Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > US Carbine M-2 fired .30 caliber pistol rounds. They were hot for a pistol round, and I don’t think anyone made a pistol that would shoot them Several people did. There was the Kimball which worked out about how you would expect, the TC Contender, and I think at least one other big semi-auto (maybe a Desert Eagle variant?). As far as I know they were all loud and obnoxious and in the case of the Kimball, dangerous at both ends. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-gun-versus-submachine-gun/710482/77 "2015-01-28T13:57:04Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > How in the wide world of sports would you carry that thing with the magazine loaded? > [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Strenuously, given [the manufacturer claims it weighs 4.6 lbs](https://www.betaco.com/cmag_faq.asp?pid=2) for the 5.56 NATO variant. They mention [that an empty 9mm magazine weighs 2.2 lbs.](https://www.betaco.com/cmag_specifications.asp) Add to that [a ballpark weight of 2.6 lbs](http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=628973) for 100 rounds of 115 gr FMJ 9mm, and I get 4.8 lbs. Which is comfortably more than [the 1.3- 1.4 lbs the pistol itself weighs](http://www.glocktalk.com/wiki/index.php/The_Glock_18_Pistol). > > I imagine it feels weird as hell to fire, like a cross between a boat anchor and a fire hose. I guess you wouldn’t need magna-porting or much of a compensator for muzzle jump after firing it. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-gun-versus-submachine-gun/710482/78 "2015-01-28T14:05:22Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > The US Carbine M-2 fired .30 caliber pistol rounds. They were hot for a pistol round, and I don’t think anyone made a pistol that would shoot them, but there you go. > [@slaphead](#): > > Several people did. There was the Kimball which worked out about how you would expect, the TC Contender, and I think at least one other big semi-auto (maybe a Desert Eagle variant?). As far as I know they were all loud and obnoxious and in the case of the Kimball, dangerous at both ends. The .30 Cal carbine round got mixed reviews during the Korean War. There were reports that the bullets would fail to penetrate (aka “bounce off”) the quilted, insulated coats the Chinese and NK troops wore during the Korean winters. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-gun-versus-submachine-gun/710482/79 "2015-01-30T11:00:01Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Pistols, BTW, have never been a serious weapon of war. They’re mostly carried by officers as symbols of rank (and were earlier used in duels). Just to note what they are symbolic of and what an officer’s unpleasant duty to use it for on the battlefield should it come down to it though, from Max Hasting’s [_Overlord_](http://www.amazon.com/Overlord-Battle-Normandy-Max-Hastings/dp/030727571X), page 149 of the hardback edition, bolding mine: > [@](#): > > _Conclusions_ > a) 6 DWR [Duke of Wellington’s regiment] is not fit to take its place in the line . > b) Even excluding the question of nerves and morale 6 DWR will not be fit to go back into the line until it is remobilise, reorganised, and to an extent retrained. It is no longer a battalion but a collection of individuals. There is naturally no esprit de corps for those who are frightened (as we all are to one degree or another) to fall back on. **I have twice had to stand at the end of a track and draw my revolver on retreating men.** ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-gun-versus-submachine-gun/710482/80 "2015-01-30T14:42:34Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Pistols, BTW, have never been a serious weapon of war. They’re mostly carried by officers as symbols of rank (and were earlier used in duels). When the enemy is close enough for them to be used in self-defense, it’s time to get the hell out of there! Before semi-automatic and automatic rifles were available, combat in jungle conditions could suddenly and unexpectedly become close-quarters. A patrol might not have time to set up a machine gun or reload the bolt-action rifles of the day. The 1911 ACP was developed because soldiers fighting in the Philippines complained that the pistols they’d been issued didn’t have enough stopping power against berserk attackers. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-gun-versus-submachine-gun/710482/81 "2015-01-30T15:12:25Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > The 1911 ACP was developed because soldiers fighting in the Philippines complained that the pistols they’d been issued didn’t have enough stopping power against berserk attackers. I think this qualifies as “the enemy getting close enough so that it’s time to get the hell out of there”! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-gun-versus-submachine-gun/710482.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-gun-versus-submachine-gun/710482.md?page=5)