# "machine" gun versus "submachine" gun **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 21, 2015, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-gun-versus-submachine-gun/710482 "2015-01-21T13:46:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-gun-versus-submachine-gun/710482/82 "2015-01-30T18:57:44Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The reason it could work: pistols wielded by cavalry did not need to have a long range - just longer than that of the pike. I’ve seen flintlock pistols in action; more often than not, they misfire. If you _do_ get a round off, you can’t reload the damned things, not on horseback in the middle of a battle. So you’re left with a fancy miniature club or a poor facscimile of a boomerang. I’d hate to have my life depend on a weapon like this. The development of the revolver (and then the magazine-fed automatic) might have offered some advantage in really tight quarters (provided you had no more than six or seven assailants), but again, I’d prefer to avoid such situations. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-gun-versus-submachine-gun/710482/83 "2015-01-30T22:13:45Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > I’ve seen flintlock pistols in action; more often than not, they misfire. If you _do_ get a round off, you can’t reload the damned things, not on horseback in the middle of a battle. So you’re left with a fancy miniature club or a poor facscimile of a boomerang. But since you’re never getting engaged in melee during a caracole, it’s not a problem. Wheel away with the rest of your rank and clear the gun after you return to the end of the line. > [@](#): > > I’d hate to have my life depend on a weapon like this. The development of the revolver (and then the magazine-fed automatic) might have offered some advantage in really tight quarters (provided you had no more than six or seven assailants), but again, I’d prefer to avoid such situations. The principle at the time was that cavalry wasn’t going to engage in close quarters. After caracole became impractical (because infantry musketry got more common and longer-ranged), cavalry resumed the classic tactic of charging to contact as fast as possible and attacking with either lances or sabres, after discharging firearms once to soften up their targets. Or else letting someone else distract the infantry (artillery, other infantry, etc.) and then striking a flank or rear. Besides. Cavalry was exciting and dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-gun-versus-submachine-gun/710482/84 "2015-01-30T22:15:11Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > I think this qualifies as “the enemy getting close enough so that it’s time to get the hell out of there”! No army can win if the soldiers bug out as soon as they get into close combat. “Time to get the hell out of there” is when your unit receives valid orders to withdraw in good order. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-gun-versus-submachine-gun/710482/85 "2015-01-30T22:28:32Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > I’ve seen flintlock pistols in action; more often than not, they misfire. If you _do_ get a round off, you can’t reload the damned things, not on horseback in the middle of a battle. So you’re left with a fancy miniature club or a poor facscimile of a boomerang. > > I’d hate to have my life depend on a weapon like this. The development of the revolver (and then the magazine-fed automatic) might have offered some advantage in really tight quarters (provided you had no more than six or seven assailants), but again, I’d prefer to avoid such situations. The idea of the caracole was that you ride up to a group of infantry holding pikes, fire your pistols, and ride away (to reload). Ideally, you would be in no danger at all - if your pistols misfired, all it would mean would be that the volume of fire spat at the poor schlubs holding pikes would be fractionally less. In any event, the type of pistol used for the caracole was not the flintlock, but the wheelock - less subject to misfire & more resistent to the weather. The reason they fell out of use was that they were infernally complex, and so very, very costly to make (and if something went wrong with them, you had to find an expert gunsmith to service them). > **[Wheellock](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheellock)** > > A wheellock, wheel-lock, or wheel lock is a friction-wheel mechanism which creates a spark that causes a firearm to fire. It was the next major development in firearms technology after the matchlock, and the first self-igniting firearm. Its name is from its rotating steel wheel to provide ignition. Developed in Europe around 1500, it was used alongside the matchlock (c. 1410s), the snaplock (c. 1540s), the snaphance (c. 1560s), and the flintlock (c. 1610s). > The wheellock works by spinning a spri... ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-gun-versus-submachine-gun/710482/86 "2015-01-30T22:29:25Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > No army can win if the soldiers bug out as soon as they get into close combat. > > “Time to get the hell out of there” is when your unit receives valid orders to withdraw in good order. Besides, you can’t win a war by playing defense, which means at some point you have to go to the enemy and take his ground from him. That means getting close. ---
**Author:** ![River\_Hippie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/river_hippie/32/26_2.png) [@River\_Hippie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/River_Hippie)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-gun-versus-submachine-gun/710482/87 "2015-01-31T00:15:24Z")
[Coolest SMG ever!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq8uyB091Dw) (9mm pistol round.) ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-gun-versus-submachine-gun/710482/88 "2015-01-31T00:24:23Z")
> [@River\_Hippie](#): > > [Coolest SMG ever!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq8uyB091Dw) > > (9mm pistol round.) Takes too long to drop Alien Grunts with though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-gun-versus-submachine-gun/710482.md?page=4)