# Machine guns in the 1980s- fact vs. fiction **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 26, 2019, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-guns-in-the-1980s-fact-vs-fiction/833100 "2019-04-26T21:56:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Cleophus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a88e57/32.png) [@Cleophus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cleophus)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2019, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-guns-in-the-1980s-fact-vs-fiction/833100/41 "2019-04-27T17:27:27Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > I’m surprised nobody’s modified an open bolt design to shoot 20/28/.410 shells. You wouldn’t even need rifling and presumably practical accuracy would be sufficient for most purposes, including shits & giggles. > OP: Movies and TV shows vastly overestimate how useful long bursts of automatic fire are (aside from suppression and anti-air). They do look cool though so you see them plenty. Criminals tend to prefer handguns for portability and concealability. I can’t think of any open bolt semi-auto shotgun chambered for 20/28 gauge or .410 bore. In fact, the only open-bolt shotgun I know of is the infamous Cobray Terminator, which is a single-shot slamfire design (and not, contrary to popular belief, banned as an open-bolt gun). Cost is the only reason to make an open-bolt semi-auto. They’re inferior in every other way to closed-bolt designs. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2019, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-guns-in-the-1980s-fact-vs-fiction/833100/42 "2019-04-28T00:39:58Z")
> [@Patch](#): > > If I have this right, the Uzi came with a 16" barrel otherwise it qualified as a short-barreled rifle, which is also prohibited. Not quite. I had a short barreled UZI that had a pinned and welded restractable stock in a closed position. This was sold and treated as a pistol. It came with a fake suppressor that gave you something to hold onto when you shot it. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2019, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-guns-in-the-1980s-fact-vs-fiction/833100/43 "2019-04-28T00:42:05Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Again, I’m not asking about committing crimes or what Joe Shit the felon thinks. I’m asking, in your opinion, if the laws that were passed made purchasing a fully automatic weapon, or a gun that had an open-bolt design difficult. You mean the laws that have been in place since 1934 that require about a year wait for the FBI background check to purchase on of these guns? Yes they made things a touch difficult. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2019, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-guns-in-the-1980s-fact-vs-fiction/833100/44 "2019-04-28T00:45:38Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Think rap. If Ice Cube sang about his Tec or his Beretta machine pistol, we’d think of that. But, damn it was a good day… Tec-9 is frequently mentioned in west-coast rap from that time period. There was literally a model manufactured in a particular way to skirt California’s gun laws. ---
**Author:** ![zuer-coli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ba9def/32.png) [@zuer-coli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zuer-coli)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2019, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-guns-in-the-1980s-fact-vs-fiction/833100/45 "2019-04-28T01:45:27Z")
never mind one errant shake and an entire post disappears into the ether. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2019, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-guns-in-the-1980s-fact-vs-fiction/833100/46 "2019-04-28T14:34:48Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > From what I’m reading, 99% of the full-auto weapons problem in the 1980s was solved by simply making most open-bolt designs NFA items. I’m doubtful whether the follow-on legislation was necessary or useful. Separate issue for discussion, I think. Back to the OP subject, though, inthe aftermath of the new rules, Film/TV studios and sensationalist media outlets being the way they are, even after steps were taken IRL they continued to overplay just how easy it was to get your hands on a legit full auto or back-alley conversion (and how effective that was for your purposes). Because, Things Go Boom = tickets & ratings; Gangs Have Machineguns = papers sell, listeners call in. We see in the Terminator example how even when the writers _knew_ you needed to modify, it would get skipped or oversimplified because it would slow down the onscreen action (or, paradoxically, because of concern about showing that it was possible: “don’t give the kids ideas” y’know). ---
**Author:** ![EdelweissPirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8491ac/32.png) [@EdelweissPirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EdelweissPirate)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2019, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-guns-in-the-1980s-fact-vs-fiction/833100/47 "2019-04-28T16:58:49Z")
> [@Cleophus](#): > > I can’t think of any open bolt semi-auto shotgun chambered for 20/28 gauge or .410 bore. In fact, the only open-bolt shotgun I know of is the infamous Cobray Terminator, which is a single-shot slamfire design For what it’s worth, the Atchisson Assault shotgun is a fully-automatic shotgun that fires from an open bolt: > **[Atchisson AA-12](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atchisson_Assault_Shotgun)** > > The AA-12 (Auto Assault-12), originally designed and known as the Atchisson Assault Shotgun, is an automatic combat shotgun developed in 1972 by Maxwell Atchisson (however, the original development by Atchisson seems to have produced only a few guns at prototype-level, with the development that ultimately lead to the gun entering the market being done later by Military Police Systems, Inc.). The most prominent feature is reduced recoil. The current 2005 version has been developed over 18 years In... ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2019, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-guns-in-the-1980s-fact-vs-fiction/833100/48 "2019-04-28T17:26:29Z")
Ahh, memories. The Tec-9 is an absolute piece of shit. Prior to the 1994 “assault weap:rolleyes:ns” ban I couldn’t give them away. Then people were told they would never be able to get one and I was making $800 profit per unit. The only bigger piece of turkey dump was the [Tec 22](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intratec_TEC-22). Both [but especially the Scorpion] had a reputation of going full auto with no modifications made by the owner. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-guns-in-the-1980s-fact-vs-fiction/833100/49 "2019-04-29T06:07:17Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > We see in the Terminator example how even when the writers _knew_ you needed to modify, it would get skipped or oversimplified because it would slow down the onscreen action (or, paradoxically, because of concern about showing that it was possible: “don’t give the kids ideas” y’know). So pre-1986, such as during the “only what you see pal”, clip, there _weren’t_ gunshops were uzis and other full-auto weapons were available to anyone with the cash? I suppose that must have been true since even then you’d need the class III license. Which takes months to get, requires the signature of the local sheriff or a workaround involving a shell corporation, and of course costs an amount of money that was once prohibitively expensive. So there wouldn’t be gun shops with racks of machineguns. You could probably start the process at a gun shop pre-1986 and maybe there’d be a single one in a well locked case but it wasn’t trivial, right? ---
**Author:** ![Cleophus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a88e57/32.png) [@Cleophus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cleophus)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-guns-in-the-1980s-fact-vs-fiction/833100/50 "2019-04-29T14:05:08Z")
The only thing the Hughes Amendment did with regard to machine gun purchases was closing the registry to new firearms, cutting supply and drastically spiking the price of transferable machine guns. Whether a dealer has “racks of machineguns” is a business decision. Generally, stocking your store with large amounts of slow-moving specialty items is not a good one. There’s also no such thing as a “Class 3 license” or “Class 3 firearm”. It’s a misnomer for the Class 03 SOT (Special Occupation Taxpayer) categorization needed by a dealer who transfers NFA items. Then, as now, a person wishing to buy a machine gun goes to a dealer, selects and buys the firearm, and then files for the NFA paperwork and background check process. This is slow and often takes the better part of a year, if not longer, to clear. Then you get your tax stamp and go pick up your firearm. You can’t file NFA paperwork to have “on hand” preemptively. An application to transfer an NFA item is specific to that item and must be completed every time you want to acquire an NFA item. There’s no general license to possess machine guns. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-guns-in-the-1980s-fact-vs-fiction/833100/51 "2019-04-29T14:13:55Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > From what I’m reading, 99% of the full-auto weapons problem in the 1980s was solved by simply making most open-bolt designs NFA items. I’m doubtful whether the follow-on legislation was necessary or useful. Was there even a problem though? Seems to me that the majority of automatic weapons used in crimes would either have been confiscated, which implies some kind of police paper trail, or they’re still out there in circulation being used. Neither one seems to be true, so I’m inclined to believe it’s a lot of Hollywood exaggeration and faux-badassery, combined with journalistic misinformation and stupidity about firearms in general. I mean, think about it- when was the last time you heard about a gun-battle among criminals like the one in _Heat_? I can’t think of one. For example, TEC-9 pistols aren’t full auto like the submachine guns that their design is clearly intended to evoke. They’re just dolled-up cheap automatic pistols that fire one round for each pull of the trigger. Similarly, there are lots of semi-automatic AK-47 variants that look just like the military versions, but fire one round for each pull of the trigger, and don’t go full auto. Same thing for the AR-15, which happens to look just like the military’s M-16/M-4. So a lot of rapid fire from one of those rifles might get misconstrued by ill-informed journalists as “fully automatic AK-47 fire” (or M-16 fire), when it was no such thing. That said, there was a period in the early-mid 1980s when you could buy replacement sear kits for AR-15 trigger groups that would make them fully automatic, since the regulating components were in the trigger group. IIRC they were made illegal pretty fast. And the only change in the legal automatic weapon situation since 1986 is that at that point, the government ceased to allow new production weapons to be sold, which reduced demand and caused prices to rise. But they were already high to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Cleophus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a88e57/32.png) [@Cleophus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cleophus)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-guns-in-the-1980s-fact-vs-fiction/833100/52 "2019-04-29T15:07:26Z")
> [@bump](#): > > That said, there was a period in the early-mid 1980s when you could buy replacement sear kits for AR-15 trigger groups that would make them fully automatic, since the regulating components were in the trigger group. Registered drop-in sear kits are still on the market. I believe the brief loophole was that they weren’t considered firearms, but once that changed, you could (had to) register the parts. This is also relevant to the OP, as many of these trigger kits are mechanically very simple, just some pieces of metal stamped or cut out of a blank. Not “file down a pin” simple, but within the capability of someone with simple machine tools. Yet, there isn’t and wasn’t a scourge of bootleg drop-in conversion kits flooding the black market. If criminals did in fact widely seek out machine guns, you would expect to see tons of bootleg sear kits made for the ubiquitous AR-15, but this isn’t the case. Real-world criminals don’t bother with machine guns. ---
**Author:** ![mixdenny](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mixdenny/32/2962_2.png) [@mixdenny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mixdenny)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2019, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-guns-in-the-1980s-fact-vs-fiction/833100/53 "2019-05-01T05:38:42Z")
Here is a drop-in, registered auto sear that just sold for $27,000: [https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/mobile/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=464545](https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/mobile/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=464545) Dennis ---
**Author:** ![skdo23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@skdo23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skdo23)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-guns-in-the-1980s-fact-vs-fiction/833100/54 "2019-05-02T20:08:57Z")
> [@Cleophus](#): > > Real-world criminals don’t bother with machine guns. They just cause more problems. (NSFW) [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaUmJOU1ejs) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/machine-guns-in-the-1980s-fact-vs-fiction/833100.md?page=2)