# Mad-Men: 4.05 "The Chrysanthemum and the Sword" (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 23, 2010, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119 "2010-08-23T01:27:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/21 "2010-08-23T05:41:55Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > You know, I’ve read this in several places, probably including this message board, but it’s a thought I’d like to vocalize once more: it sort of frustrates me how Weiner is making Betty out to be such a terrible mother (and sometimes just a terrible person), because I think it often leads to the audience giving Don a “pass” for his terrible behavior in the marriage, primarily as a husband but also as a father. In terms of the marriage, Betty was really the one that was wronged, but because she’s so awful this season, we end up sympathizing with Don. At least she was there with the kids every day (or almost every day), fixed them meals (at least the ones Carla didn’t fix), probably bandaged up skinned knees, etc. While Don isn’t actively abusive, he is totally absent. It’s possible we might all start to hate Betty a little less after we’re made privy to a few sessions with her and the child psychologist. The “regular” psychologist Don sent her to before was obviously a big waste of time, but this lady seems like she might help America stop hating Betty and start feeling sorry for her. Maybe. Or maybe she’ll die in a fire! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Fried\_Dough\_Ho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Fried\_Dough\_Ho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fried_Dough_Ho)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/22 "2010-08-23T05:48:23Z")
> [@Zen\_Postman](#): > > Sally was masturbating to…Ducky Mallard? \ Illya Kuryakin - _Man From U.N.C.L.E._ \ ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/23 "2010-08-23T06:17:20Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > You know, I’ve read this in several places, probably including this message board, but it’s a thought I’d like to vocalize once more: it sort of frustrates me how Weiner is making Betty out to be such a terrible mother (and sometimes just a terrible person), because I think it often leads to the audience giving Don a “pass” for his terrible behavior in the marriage, primarily as a husband but also as a father. In terms of the marriage, Betty was really the one that was wronged, but because she’s so awful this season, we end up sympathizing with Don. At least she was there with the kids every day (or almost every day), fixed them meals (at least the ones Carla didn’t fix), probably bandaged up skinned knees, etc. While Don isn’t actively abusive, he is totally absent. The problem with that though is that Betty is not just an evil caricature or the two-dimensional crazy ex-wife. She’s like real people I really know. It does soften our opinion of Don, but at the same time, it’s clear that he’s done a number on her and her frustration comes from a very real place. Saying she wants him dead is petulant and childlike, but I don’t think Weiner makes it impossible to understand where she’s coming from or why she does that. I hate Betty. I really do. I wouldn’t be sorry if she was hit by a bus. But I don’t think I hate her because Weiner has unfairly characterized her. I think I hate her because I hate the people I know who are like her. ---
**Author:** ![TheTerribleTako](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ba8739/32.png) [@TheTerribleTako](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheTerribleTako)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/24 "2010-08-23T07:04:50Z")
Miss Blankenship is comedy gold. She’s Don’s penance for every misdeed he’s ever done against his secretaries. Hee, when I saw Pete clutching the white flowers, I knew he hadn’t read the book. I was so relieved when Pete said that he was getting them out of the office. That translator and his (occasional) poor translation reminded me of an anime panel I attended years ago that was staffed by a newbie translator. The results were utterly incomprehensible to everyone in that room. I’m glad though, that Joan’s boobs managed to translate just fine across cultures. Who was the director for this episode? There were some amazingly well-shot scenes in this episode. Peggy riding the motorcycle in the studio, Don leaning against the refrigerator, Joan and Roger in his office - all of these scenes were framed with such care and detail. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/25 "2010-08-23T08:11:38Z")
[nm ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/26 "2010-08-23T10:24:06Z")
Is this setting it up for Sally to eventually come out as lesbian? The short hair, the longing look at her friend… ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/27 "2010-08-23T10:29:35Z")
Oh BTW: The scene at the end was foreshadowing the dominance of the fuel efficient Japanese cars during the 1970’s gas crises. I wish I could find it but there’s a fascinating account of how Honda USA was basically left alone by the parent corporation and allowed to do what it wanted to to sell motorcycles into the US market and they later translated their experience into correctly identifying the trend towards smaller, cheaper cars. I predict if SCDP can keep that account, they’ll do very, very well for themselves in 5 years time. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/28 "2010-08-23T12:21:33Z")
Last episode, Pete tells his father-in-law that he wants the entire Vicks Chemicals account and not just Clearasil. I thought that was his way of upgrading the Clearasil account so he could avoid dropping it. The episode ends with the guys from the office meeting for lunch or something to discuss it. Oh, and Trudy’s father acting all over a barrel to give it to Pete. In this episode, it says that CGC has the Clearasil account and Don says they don’t follow accounts that are retired. Are we to take it that SCDP didn’t get Vicks or are they working on Vicks minus Clearasil (to avoid the Ponds conflict) or what? Nothing ever got mentioned about that. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/29 "2010-08-23T12:44:43Z")
At the end of the previous episode, Pete told the others that they were going to get all of the Vicks business and he was going give Ken’s firm the Clearasil bit to avoid conflict with Pond’s. ---
**Author:** ![corkboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@corkboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/corkboard)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/30 "2010-08-23T12:54:58Z")
“We don’t know what this room is for”. I guess it’s a sign of the times, but I couldn’t believe the reaction to Sally cutting her hair. First, Don says “you were supposed to watch them”. What- the babysitter’s supposed to go into the bathroom with her? Then Betty absolutely freaks out- it’s not like the girl shaved her head; in fact her hair wasn’t much shorter than Betty’s own hair. It’s hair- it grows. Big deal. As much as Pete sometimes makes my skin crawl, I was oddly cheering for him during the whole thing with Roger- including Bert’s support of Pete, and how conciliatory he was toward the Honda execs. And I loved the way Don delivered his line to Roger about Pete’s argument- “He’s right”. “It’s a cantaloupe”. ---
**Author:** ![clnilsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecccb3/32.png) [@clnilsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clnilsen)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/31 "2010-08-23T13:05:33Z")
[quote=“AuntiePam, post:9, topic:551119”] > [@Gestalt](#): > > On an even more shallow note, I was wondering how that scene was directed. I assume the actress didn’t know what she was supposed to be doing. How old is she? Younger than Linda Blair? We were wondering the same thing. I was trying to figure out what you would give as direction to a kid to get the same reaction, but not let on what you were getting her to do. I noticed the scene was in closeup, so I would imagine it’s something like “act scared, now act surprised” and it was just a crapshoot to try and get an O-face. ---
**Author:** ![jordanr2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/838e76/32.png) [@jordanr2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jordanr2)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/32 "2010-08-23T13:07:03Z")
The trouble is there’s a grain of truth in most of what Betty says (though “I’ll cut your fingers off!” was maybe over the top). It wouldn’t have killed Don to take a night off, and Sally’s behavior is treading a thin line between acting out and what you’d expect from someone her age. I think the therapist is the right step for the wrong reasons. Weird how openly Pete brought up Roger’s drinking problem, though I guess he had no alternative. ---
**Author:** ![corkboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@corkboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/corkboard)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/33 "2010-08-23T13:18:31Z")
[quote=“clnilsen, post:31, topic:551119”] > [@AuntiePam](#): > > We were wondering the same thing. I was trying to figure out what you would give as direction to a kid to get the same reaction, but not let on what you were getting her to do. > > I noticed the scene was in closeup, so I would imagine it’s something like “act scared, now act surprised” and it was just a crapshoot to try and get an O-face. I’m not sure if I watched a different edit of that scene, but what I watched didn’t get as far as an O-face. It was just Sally starting to pull up her nightgown, then a couple cuts between a closeup of her face staring at the tv, and the tv without any sound, then the mom comes in with “what are you doing!?!?”. I watched the episode twice last night (my wife was out and got back 10 minutes before it ended, then we both watched the encore presentation). When I watched it the first time, I was in the other room and missed the shot when she was pulling up her nightgown; all I saw was her staring at the tv then the shot of the tv with no audio. Then the revelation when the mom told Betty that she caught Sally playing with herself. I thought- really? I totally didn’t get that, I guess they were being super subtle about it. Then the 2nd time I watched the ep, I saw that all I missed was her pulling up her nightgown, and figured well, I guess that’s how they got across what she was supposed to be doing. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/34 "2010-08-23T13:26:29Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > … In terms of the marriage, Betty was really the one that was wronged, but because she’s so awful this season, we end up sympathizing with Don. At least she was there with the kids every day (or almost every day), fixed them meals (at least the ones Carla didn’t fix), probably bandaged up skinned knees, etc. While Don isn’t actively abusive, he is totally absent. Betty was certainly wronged – lied to, cheated on, infantalized. But there is absolutely no evidence she did any of those other things. Carla does that. Everything we have seen suggests that Betty is nothing more than the diciplinarian. Carla is the one there to take care of the kids on a day to day basis, and the one there for their crises. I agree that Betty has been cast in a poor light… but we haven’t seen much to cast her in a _good_ light, either. Certainly she’s never been portrayed as “motherly” at all. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/35 "2010-08-23T13:57:05Z")
The scene where Don reads the snippet from the book. Can someone remind me what it was and how it related to events? Something about an audience, but I missed it. (Dammit. The rock ‘n’ roll _has_ made me deaf. Just like my mom predicted in 1987!) ---
**Author:** ![Zen\_Postman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4da419/32.png) [@Zen\_Postman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zen_Postman)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/36 "2010-08-23T14:37:49Z")
> [@Fried\_Dough\_Ho](#): > > > [@Zen\_Postman](#): > > > > Sally was masturbating to…Ducky Mallard? > > \ Illya Kuryakin - _Man From U.N.C.L.E._ \ Yeah, I know. My point being “Hey wasn’t that David McCallum?!” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/37 "2010-08-23T14:42:21Z")
I’m sure I’ve seen the commercial that Ted comes up with, at the end of which the motorcyclist doffs helmet and reveals that she’s a beautiful girl. And I recall it’s being considered a good one. > [@Jophiel](#): > > “Not very subtle, are they?” > “No, they are not” I thought he said, “No we are not,” which, if true, would be even funnier. > [@AuntiePam](#): > > It did, which surprised me. And doesn’t Dr. Edna look a lot like the housemother from _The Facts of Life_? And wasn’t her name also Edna? Mrs. Edna Garrett, played by Charlotte Rae. She played the same character in _Diff’rent Strokes_. > [@Jophiel](#): > > Hey, who _was_ the person Roger said they should just bring in when he was raging about the Japanese? Dr. Someone-someone? Presumably someone related to the war. Dr. Lyle something. I googled it when he said it, but came up with nothing. > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I thought by “boyfriend” the guy meant Don Draper, since Smitty was so complimentary of him. Ted was annoyed by Smitty’s praise for Don. Ted gave him an assignment – 20 synonyms for “pimple” – so he wasn’t telling him to go work for Don. I think his “boyfriend” is Kurt. > [@Gestalt](#): > > You know, I’ve read this in several places, probably including this message board, but it’s a thought I’d like to vocalize once more: it sort of frustrates me how Weiner is making Betty out to be such a terrible mother (and sometimes just a terrible person), because I think it often leads to the audience giving Don a “pass” for his terrible behavior in the marriage, primarily as a husband but also as a father. In terms of the marriage, Betty was really the one that was wronged, but because she’s so awful this season, we end up sympathizing with Don. At least she was there with the kids every day (or almost every day), fixed them meals (at least the ones Carla didn’t fix), probably bandaged up skinned knees, etc. While Don isn’t actively abusive, he is totally absent. I’ve never seen Don do anything that I’d consider “actively abusive” of the children, but I have seen Betty be abusive. I think at least part of the point is that “bad husband” doesn’t necessarily mean “bad father.” And, “mostly absent father” isn’t necessarily “bad” or “abusive” either. Since the beginning of the series, the children are clearly happier in Don’s company than in Betty’s. When it comes down to it, Don behaves as if he genuinely loves his children, even if he doesn’t understand or isn’t capable of doing what he needs to do for them. On the other hand, Betty behaves as if she genuinely fears and resents her children, mostly considering them a problem to be solved and to prevent them from doing things that embarrass her. Whether or not this “absolves” Don of any misbehaviour really doesn’t bother me, because real people are complex in this way. I’ve said this before about this show, and I’ll say it again – most people are not classifiable as “good” or “bad” as a whole. A lot of people can be generally good all the time, and then do one or two really despicable things (like Pete Campbell’s Gudrun incident). The point is that an occasional bad act, although reprehensible (and sometimes deserving of legal consequences) isn’t enough to explain a person as a whole. Betty has been very badly treated by the men in her life, and, yes, that does garner some sympathy. But, generally speaking, Betty is a pretty repulsive person in her day-to-day behaviour. That’s realistic too. I know someone kind of like that, someone who has had to bear a good amount of abuse and hardship and has survived, but has managed to be a complete shit to the people closest to her and caused permanent emotional/psychological scars to her children. > [@jordanr2](#): > > It wouldn’t have killed Don to take a night off Don has a regular routine with the kids. This isn’t a one-off visit that required special attention. Life must go on. And, really, Don couldn’t have prevented what happened either. What really was bad was Don’s sacking of the nurse/babysitter. He should have understood that there really was nothing she nor anyone else could have done. > [@](#): > > and Sally’s behavior is treading a thin line between acting out and what you’d expect from someone her age. I think the therapist is the right step for the wrong reasons. From my perspective, there’s nothing pathological about what Sally’s going through and I doubt that _her_ seeing a therapist will make a huge difference. What’s important is that Betty is getting treatment (Betty’s seeing a child psychiatrist! Perfect!), because if Betty can get herself fixed, that’ll solve the bulk of Sally’s problems. > [@](#): > > Weird how openly Pete brought up Roger’s drinking problem, though I guess he had no alternative. I think I might have missed that. What did he say about Roger’s drinking? There’s something interesting going on. The last few episodes have brought up alcoholism in an explicit manner between characters that never happened before – Freddy in A.A., Allison referring to Don as an “alcoholic,” etc. Before it was either very oblique (Pete referring to “Those people are disgusting”) or joked about (Freddy’s soiling the rug). > [@Lightray](#): > > Everything we have seen suggests that Betty is nothing more than the diciplinarian. I would say a martinet rather than a disciplinarian. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/38 "2010-08-23T14:54:43Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Dr. Lyle something. I googled it when he said it, but came up with nothing. Dr. Lyle Evans. And so did everyone else. See the [Google Trends spike](http://www.google.com/trends/hottrends?q=dr.+lyle+evans&date=2010-8-23&sa=X) for that search. > [@acsenray](#): > > Ted was annoyed by Smitty’s praise for Don. Ted gave him an assignment – 20 synonyms for “pimple” – so he wasn’t telling him to go work for Don. I think his “boyfriend” is Kurt. I thought that Smitty said he was straight and that only Kurt was gay. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/39 "2010-08-23T15:10:24Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > > [@acsenray](#): > > > > Ted was annoyed by Smitty’s praise for Don. Ted gave him an assignment – 20 synonyms for “pimple” – so he wasn’t telling him to go work for Don. I think his “boyfriend” is Kurt. > > I thought that Smitty said he was straight and that only Kurt was gay. Smitty is straight (or says he is). But his best bud is gay, so people like Ted are going to say stuff like that. Dudes say that kind of thing even when both parties are straight. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/40 "2010-08-23T15:14:58Z")
I love how Roger has the best lines, even when he’s completely in the wrong – Pete: “That was almost 20 years ago! These are completely different people!” Roger: “How is that possible? I’m still here!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119.md?page=3)