# Mad-Men: 4.05 "The Chrysanthemum and the Sword" (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 23, 2010, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119 "2010-08-23T01:27:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/41 "2010-08-23T15:50:19Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I would say a martinet rather than a disciplinarian. I’m inclined to agree, actually. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/42 "2010-08-23T16:18:59Z")
Betty is the embodiment of the pampered, frustrated 60s housewife. It’s not an enviable position to be in. It’s easy to hate her, since she has so many advantages, but is still a nasty bitch. The psychiatrist obviously sees that she (and Don) are the real problems. Overall, this was great episode. The culture clash thing makes for good viewing. I’ve done business in Japan, and it’s rally tough at first. _Taihen desu!_ “Very difficult”, as they are fond of saying! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/43 "2010-08-23T16:40:17Z")
Another thing I liked about this episode was the subtle illustration of the Roger-Cooper relationship. Roger really is Cooper’s beloved-but-naughty-little-boy, and off screen, he gave him some kind of talking-to that made him apologize to the other partners. But in front of the others, Cooper is very careful not to humiliate Roger. Very cute. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/44 "2010-08-23T17:33:46Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I love how Roger has the best lines, even when he’s completely in the wrong – > > Pete: “That was almost 20 years ago! These are completely different people!” > > Roger: “How is that possible? I’m still here!” I have to admit I chuckled a bit when he said in their presence “Sorry to barge in but I know for a fact these people LOVE surprises” and then “They won’t be impressed until you drop the big one on them. Twice!” After all the maudlin scenes of guys having war flashbacks about the guys who didn’t make it home in so many movies (“he was a kid from Topeka who wanted to be a doctor and carried a puppy under his hat and aou faljf oika zla dofja dfaadf aljfao”) I actually loved it when Roger began one and Joan cut him off with “I don’t give a damn!” My cable went out at the very end. The last thing I saw was Lane coming into Don’s office and saying “Congratulations!” about the Honda account. What happened after that? (There’s no way they got the account since even if Claugh pissed them off by doing a commercial Sterling-Cooper didn’t do a presentation at all.) ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/45 "2010-08-23T17:36:23Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > > [@acsenray](#): > > > > Dr. Lyle something. I googled it when he said it, but came up with nothing. > > Dr. Lyle Evans. And so did everyone else. See the [Google Trends spike](http://www.google.com/trends/hottrends?q=dr.+lyle+evans&date=2010-8-23&sa=X) for that search. [A blip about “Dr. Evans” and the google searches.](http://www.buzztab.com/entertainment/dr-lyle-evans-fictional-character-real-person/) When Betty was looking at the dollhouse did anybody else expect a flashback? (I thought maybe she’d gotten the random childhood flashbacks in the divorce.) I’d forgotten until last night Don’s sabotage of her own therapy- while I can’t stand Betty that was probably his number one most despicable and divorce-worthy deed of the series. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/46 "2010-08-23T17:40:43Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Another thing I liked about this episode was the subtle illustration of the Roger-Cooper relationship. Roger really is Cooper’s beloved-but-naughty-little-boy, and off screen, he gave him some kind of talking-to that made him apologize to the other partners. But in front of the others, Cooper is very careful not to humiliate Roger. Very cute. I was disappointed they didn’t have more of Cooper’s office with its Japanese art and ‘no shoes allowed’ policy. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/47 "2010-08-23T17:58:17Z")
It was a great, funny episode; I laughed out loud several times. Don got to be manipulative, devious, and underhanded in a good cause; Pete got to be in the right but nonetheless humiliated; Roger got to be in the wrong but terribly funny; Peggy got to be wordlessly hot and pithily witty. The only flaw was the repeated failure of anyone to hit Betty with a frying pan. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/48 "2010-08-23T18:25:13Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > My cable went out at the very end. The last thing I saw was Lane coming into Don’s office and saying “Congratulations!” about the Honda account. What happened after that? (There’s no way they got the account since even if Claugh pissed them off by doing a commercial Sterling-Cooper didn’t do a presentation at all.) Lane congratulated Draper on taking the risk (and succeeding) and said he knew about the ruse because receipts went through him, including Peggy renting studio space. Pete (I think) said that Honda apparently never had any intent of leaving Grey but they _are_ thinking about shopping their upcoming auto line and removed CGC from consideration while making SCDP a top contender. Lane described the Honda car as a “motorcycle with doors and windows” which will be nice as your brains will have something to splatter against when you crash. Then there was a scene with Don and Dr. Faye in which they share a glass of sake (the contents of CGC’s mockery “gift”) and it’s revealed that Faye wears a fake wedding ring to keep advances at bay in her professional life. Then a scene of Sally (brought by Carla) entering the psychologist’s office. I’m sure someone will correct any errors 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/49 "2010-08-23T18:34:36Z")
Don/Dr. Faye was before that… I feel like way before that in the episode but I could be wrong. It went from the boys meeting to the psychiatrist office. ---
**Author:** ![Aw\_Hamburgers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/47e85d/32.png) [@Aw\_Hamburgers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aw_Hamburgers)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/50 "2010-08-23T18:45:30Z")
Maybe I’m not well versed in Japanese business culture, but how did Don giving them their $3000 back and not presenting anything award him their business? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/51 "2010-08-23T18:49:50Z")
> [@Aw\_Hamburgers](#): > > Maybe I’m not well versed in Japanese business culture, but how did Don giving them their $3000 back and not presenting anything award him their business? He called them on their allowing CGC to break the presentation rules and said he’d rather bow out then work with someone who can’t stay by their own rules. In essence, he showed honor and make them look lacking in honor (and also showed CGC to lack honor). In order to reclaim their own integrity, they dismissed the dishonorable CGC and looked towards the “honorable” SCDP. SCDP doesn’t have Honda’s business yet but Don’s plot put SCDP into the game after Roger’s botching the deal and potentially put CGC out of business or at least on _very_ weak financial footing for the year. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/52 "2010-08-23T18:51:03Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > > [@Sampiro](#): > > > > My cable went out at the very end. The last thing I saw was Lane coming into Don’s office and saying “Congratulations!” about the Honda account. What happened after that? (There’s no way they got the account since even if Claugh pissed them off by doing a commercial Sterling-Cooper didn’t do a presentation at all.) > > Lane congratulated Draper on taking the risk (and succeeding) and said he knew about the ruse because receipts went through him, including Peggy renting studio space. Pete (I think) said that Honda apparently never had any intent of leaving Grey but they _are_ thinking about shopping their upcoming auto line and removed CGC from consideration while making SCDP a top contender. Lane described the Honda car as a “motorcycle with doors and windows” which will be nice as your brains will have something to splatter against when you crash. Thanks. I was thinking it would stretch credibility if SCDP got the account. I missed a few minutes of last week’s episode- is CGC the agency that Cosgrove works for now? When I worked in hotels and we had Japanese businessmen as guests they consistently _never_ wanted to be taken to a Japanese steakhouse or sushi place by their local contacts. I don’t know if this was because, as one said, “Japanese steakhouse not Japanese!” or if it was for the same reason that if I were in Germany I wouldn’t want to go to an Olive Garden (i.e. I can get that at home). I wonder if taking Japanese businessmen to Benihana in 1965 NYC would have been the same. Speaking of, I thought it was a bit gauche that Don- who doesn’t usually care much about watching pennies- pointed out how expensive it was to his date (character name eludes me, but Mrs. Newlin from _True Blood_). Any idea why he did this? And has anybody ever actually read _Chrysanthemum and the Sword_? It was funny to me that my ‘could scarcely be less Japanese’ mother couldn’t stand mums for exactly the same reason Pete removed them in the show- she associated them with funerals; if somebody gave her a pot of them she’d be courteous and thank them but as soon as they left the mums were gone. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/53 "2010-08-23T18:52:44Z")
He called them out for breaking their own rules and for pointing out that Ted didn’t follow the rules. He showed himself to have integrity and to understand their values. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/54 "2010-08-23T18:58:26Z")
A different thread topic perhaps, but- if I were representing an overseas company on a contract that if approved would be lucrative to both companies, I would make every effort to show courtesy and if I were in their HQ overseas I would make every effort to observe all local traditions and rituals. (I’d probably also apologize in advance for anything that was considered rude, stressing that any such faux pas was borne of ignorance and not disrespect and asking them/permitting them in advance to correct me as soon as I did it.) However, if I were in my own offices then while I would still show them respect obviously I don’t think I should be expected to observe every jot and tittle of their tradition and I would think they should make some concession to my own culture, yet I’m always reading lists of what you never do with foreign businessmen or dignitaries (don’t show the bottom of your foot to an Arab, bow to Japanese businessmen, the ritual gifts, licking the ankles of a Bulgarian priest and never play the harmonica with a Nigerian unless he does it first in which case you play harmony, etc.). What is etiquette? Are some foreign businessmen really that insistent on having their own customs observed (even if they conflict with local customs) or is it overblown? ---
**Author:** ![singular1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ba9def/32.png) [@singular1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/singular1)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/55 "2010-08-23T18:59:41Z")
It pointed out the SCDP (?) felt disrespected because Honda didn’t follow their own rules. By appearing honorable and incorruptible, they look like a better company for Honda’s further business. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/56 "2010-08-23T19:03:48Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Speaking of, I thought it was a bit gauche that Don- who doesn’t usually care much about watching pennies- pointed out how expensive it was to his date (character name eludes me, but Mrs. Newlin from _True Blood_). Any idea why he did this? I don’t think he was being penny-pinching. She was being overcritical and a party-pooper and he was pointing out that people pay good money for this, so it can’t be all that bad. Or at least that’s what he meant, I think. I think she annoys Don. She’s very presumptive, overbearing, hypercritical, and tends to bring down the mood. I mean, come on, “Three dates and five months and _this_ is where you take me?” I’d be tempted to call her a taxi that minute. Yeah, Benihana is kind of cheesy, but the chefs work hard to entertain you and the food is decent. What a harpy. And you know that every detail of this is going to be told straight to Jane. I’m surprised Don has given her three dates. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/57 "2010-08-23T19:07:40Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > “Three dates and five months and _this_ is where you take me?” I’d be tempted to call her a taxi that minute. Yeah, Benihana is kind of cheesy, but the chefs work hard to entertain you and the food is decent. Plus at the time it was probably a lot less cheesy and hard to get reservations. (Frankly I _still_ enjoy a Japanese steak house from time to time- and would particularly love to find some of their salad dressing.) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/58 "2010-08-23T19:08:42Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > What is etiquette? Are some foreign businessmen really that insistent on having their own customs observed (even if they conflict with local customs) or is it overblown? These are all stereotypes, of course. But doesn’t it depend on who holds the cards in a business relationship? I’m sure when a Japanese firm is trying to get an American’s business, they will take pains to please. And just waggery: I believe that many non-Americans have an impression that Americans are insular and ignorant of the customs, values, and histories of other societies. Maybe it’s just a matter of being impressed that an American firm would go to the trouble of learning their customs and tastes. If they have a choice between a candidate that does go to that trouble and one that doesn’t, perhaps this will tilt the scale. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/59 "2010-08-23T19:30:53Z")
On a lighter note, another classic line. “I’m still trying to figure out how you work.” ---
**Author:** ![corkboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@corkboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/corkboard)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/60 "2010-08-23T19:58:58Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Then there was a scene with Don and Dr. Faye in which they share a glass of sake (the contents of CGC’s mockery “gift”) and it’s revealed that Faye wears a fake wedding ring to keep advances at bay in her professional life. Then a scene of Sally (brought by Carla) entering the psychologist’s office. > > I’m sure someone will correct any errors 😉 Does anyone else think Don was uncharacteristically forthcoming with details of his personal life in that scene? He’s divorced; he doesn’t know what to do with his kids when they visit but when he brings them back he misses them; his daughter is going to therapy; things generally are not good. That’s about as much of Don’s inner feelings as we’ve ever heard from him, and he spills it with practically zero provocation to a woman he barked at last week and has shown he has no respect for what she brings to the firm. Was it all designed to show him as ‘sensitive’ so he can get some boom-chicka-bow-bow, or what? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119.md?page=4)