# Mad-Men: 4.05 "The Chrysanthemum and the Sword" (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 23, 2010, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119 "2010-08-23T01:27:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/61 "2010-08-23T19:59:46Z")
Something that puzzled me was that producing a short TV ad could “bankrupt” an ad agency. Is that reasonable? They were given $3,000, a not insignificant amount in 1965. They probably couldn’t do it all for $3K, but it’s a start. Plus, they didn’t have to buy airtime, and isn’t that what makes TV ads so expensive? I liked this episode but it was one of the more predictable ones. We knew Betty would over-react with Sally, we knew Don would pull something out of his hat, and we knew that someone would embarrass the company in front of the Japanese. We could even guess how they’d react to Joan.\* The only surprise to me was Henry being not too bad as a stepdad, and the way Betty opened up to the psychiatrist. I expected her to be more defensive, but I guess since the “problem” is with Sally and not her, she was okay with it. \*And speaking of Joan, her body is distracting. In _Firefly_ we saw her in rather diaphanous clothes, and she’s not built at all like she appears on _Mad Men_. Whatever she’s wearing under those clothes, it can’t be comfortable. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/62 "2010-08-23T20:03:13Z")
> [@Aw\_Hamburgers](#): > > Maybe I’m not well versed in Japanese business culture, but how did Don giving them their $3000 back and not presenting anything award him their business? He said he wasn’t interested in working with a company that wouldn’t follow their own rules and gave them back their money. Thereby putting himself above them morally and showing that he was honorable. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/63 "2010-08-23T20:08:25Z")
> [@corkboard](#): > > That’s about as much of Don’s inner feelings as we’ve ever heard from him, and he spills it with practically zero provocation to a woman he barked at last week and has shown he has no respect for what she brings to the firm. I don’t think he has no respect for her. I think he just doesn’t like anyone interfering with his creative mojo. She’s also threatening with her little mindreader trick. But she is kind of shrink-y in her own way so maybe she invites disclosure. > [@AuntiePam](#): > > Something that puzzled me was that producing a short TV ad could “bankrupt” an ad agency. Is that reasonable? They were given $3,000, a not insignificant amount in 1965. They probably couldn’t do it all for $3K, but it’s a start. Pryce said it would eat up their spec or pitching budget for the year. It wouldn’t literally bankrupt them. But film production was expensive (they couldn’t do video – even into the 1970s, TV stations were developing film for the nightly news report) because it requires hiring a lot of specialists doing time-consuming work – camera, director, editor, all that – who probably work on union wages. > [@](#): > > The only surprise to me was Henry being not too bad as a stepdad I’ve been getting the feeling since episode 1 of the season that Henry is a decent parent, but he doesn’t get to call the shots with the Draper kids. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/64 "2010-08-23T20:10:02Z")
> [@corkboard](#): > > > [@Jophiel](#): > > > > Then there was a scene with Don and Dr. Faye in which they share a glass of sake (the contents of CGC’s mockery “gift”) and it’s revealed that Faye wears a fake wedding ring to keep advances at bay in her professional life. Then a scene of Sally (brought by Carla) entering the psychologist’s office. > > > > I’m sure someone will correct any errors 😉 > > Does anyone else think Don was uncharacteristically forthcoming with details of his personal life in that scene? He’s divorced; he doesn’t know what to do with his kids when they visit but when he brings them back he misses them; his daughter is going to therapy; things generally are not good. That’s about as much of Don’s inner feelings as we’ve ever heard from him, and he spills it with practically zero provocation to a woman he barked at last week and has shown he has no respect for what she brings to the firm. Was it all designed to show him as ‘sensitive’ so he can get some boom-chicka-bow-bow, or what? I thought it was just an extension of Faye’s ability to convince people to talk. She listened to him with interest but without commentary, she stood close without standing too close, she maintained eye contact–in other words, she did exactly what she told him 5 seconds earlier she does. And he reacted exactly the way she predicted he would. He might not understand why people have to talk about themselves all the time, but he could have a moment of faux-intimacy with her and unburden himself. He treated his girlfriends like that, too. I don’t think it was a calculated move on his part. I think it just fit into the general theme of delicate diplomacy we see in the ep. If you approach people on their terms and in their fashion, validating without judging, they’ll be willing to communicate (Don and the Japanese businessmen, Roger and Joan, Henry and Betty, Dr. Edna and Betty). ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/65 "2010-08-23T20:36:33Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Pryce said it would eat up their spec or pitching budget for the year. It wouldn’t literally bankrupt them. Lane also mentions that the $3,000 would buy them three or four seconds of commercial. So if you guesstimate $875 per second for studio, production, editing, etc then a 30 second spot would run a little over $26,000. Or $23,000 out of pocket after the Japanese allowance (and that’s ignoring any extra materials they’d produce). I suppose shutting down streets and subway tunnels and all that to shoot the commercial CGC was pitching would have cost even more than that. If Cosgrove is at CGC as someone upthread mentioned, I’m surprised Ted (?) didn’t grill him instead of Smitty about Don’s habits. Cosgrove was full time at Sterling Cooper a lot longer than Smitty was part-time. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/66 "2010-08-23T20:42:27Z")
I was wondering about the $3,000 that they received from Honda. Was it standard to be paid upfront for pitching a campaign? I would think that building campaigns for prospective clients would be part of the cost of doing business. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/67 "2010-08-23T21:01:50Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > If Cosgrove is at CGC as someone upthread mentioned, Ken is at a place called “Geyer,” I think. I don’t think it’s meant to be the same firm. Pete decided to pass Clearasil to Ken’s firm, but Ted snapped it up. That’s what the newspaper columnist was calling to ask Don about at the beginning of the episode. > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I was wondering about the $3,000 that they received from Honda. Was it standard to be paid upfront for pitching a campaign? I would think that building campaigns for prospective clients would be part of the cost of doing business. I don’t think it is standard practice. I think the point was that Honda was doing something different. They set the rules and they decided it was worth paying each contender $3,000 and limit the expenses to that allowance. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/68 "2010-08-23T21:07:09Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > …Lane also mentions that the $3,000 would buy them three or four seconds of commercial. So if you guesstimate $875 per second for studio, production, editing, etc then a 30 second spot would run a little over $26,000. Or $23,000 out of pocket… According to [this](http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/) site $3,000 in 1965 = $20,762.95 in 2010. $26,000 = $179,945.59. CGC would be out $159,182.63. And that’s not accounting for how much relative costs of labor, production, permits, etc cost. ---
**Author:** ![Bytegeist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@Bytegeist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bytegeist)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/69 "2010-08-23T21:29:44Z")
But what about the **pear problem** , which we only got a glimpse of last week? What happened to that plot line? Are the neighbors across the hall having trouble keeping themselves in pears? Is there a pear shortage gripping the city? Have pear riots been breaking out on the streets, and the old woman can’t bring herself to face the horrors she’s seen? The horrors she’s had to _inflict_, herself, however necessary they were … This week Don acts like he’s forgotten the whole matter — but I bet it’s tearing him up inside. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/70 "2010-08-23T21:37:23Z")
> [@Bytegeist](#): > > This week Don acts like he’s forgotten the whole matter — but I bet it’s tearing him up inside. Maybe that’s what she meant by “I’ll tell you inside”- she was his conscience and she was saying “I’m going to peal you like a pear from the inside”… what brilliant subtlety! ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/71 "2010-08-23T22:28:57Z")
[quote=“Jophiel, post:65, topic:551119”] > [@acsenray](#): > > If Cosgrove is at CGC as someone upthread mentioned, I’m surprised Ted (?) didn’t grill him instead of Smitty about Don’s habits. Cosgrove was full time at Sterling Cooper a lot longer than Smitty was part-time. In addition to what **ascenray** said, Ken was in accounts and Smitty in creative, so Smitty would have actually worked with/under Draper, unlike Ken. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/72 "2010-08-23T23:06:48Z")
Well, it’s a moot point since it seems like Cosgrove isn’t with CGC but accounts at Sterling Cooper pretty much ran through creative. There wouldn’t have been an account at SC, especially pre-buyout that Don Draper didn’t directly dip his fingers into. But, yeah, the real answer is that Cosgrove didn’t work at CGC so asking him would have been problematic 😛 Edit: Yeah, just checked. CGC stands for “Cutler Gleason and Chaough.” and Cosgrove is with Geyer. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/73 "2010-08-23T23:54:48Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Edit: Yeah, just checked. CGC stands for “Cutler Gleason and Chaough.” and Cosgrove is with Geyer. And “Chaough” is pronounced “Shaw” or “Schow” (or close). Why the odd spelling, I wonder? The first seven pages on Google are all references to the character – nobody else in the known universe is named Chaough. Along with “Dr. Lyle Evans”, it looks like Weiner is having fun inventing names. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/74 "2010-08-24T00:53:17Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > When I worked in hotels and we had Japanese businessmen as guests they consistently _never_ wanted to be taken to a Japanese steakhouse or sushi place by their local contacts. I don’t know if this was because, as one said, “Japanese steakhouse not Japanese!” or if it was for the same reason that if I were in Germany I wouldn’t want to go to an Olive Garden (i.e. I can get that at home). I wonder if taking Japanese businessmen to Benihana in 1965 NYC would have been the same. Japanese love steaks. To be in NYC, and to end up at Benihana instead of a **real NYC steakhouse** would be a travesty. Especially in 1965, when America was the epitome of affluence and quality. ---
**Author:** ![Fair\_Rarity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fair_rarity/32/153_2.png) [@Fair\_Rarity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fair_Rarity)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/75 "2010-08-24T01:08:32Z")
I think why Don overreacted to the sitter wasn’t over how Sally looked, 'cause I bet he couldn’t care less, but because he knew that both he and Sally were going to be in for a ration of shit from Betty. And that is what happened. This show is like The Sopranos in that the characters are complicated like REAL people. You can hate Betty, you can feel bad for her. It depends on any given episode and your own experience with people like her. What we’re SUPPOSED to think of her is not clear. It is not shoved down our throats. And like Carmela, she’s clearly a handful, but was married to someone who does not treat her with respect. And like the Sopranos (and The Shield), you tend to root for the protagonist, even if he is not a “good guy” because sometimes he’s not entirely bad. I like the gray areas. That’s what life is. So few people are always good or always bad. Knowing what a total ass Don can be, when he asked his date to teach him how to use the chopsticks, I still was in my head saying “Baby I’ll teach you anything you want.” Even though I know better than to touch a guy like him with a 10-foot pole, the way this show is done makes me want to jump him anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/76 "2010-08-24T01:52:49Z")
One of the things I think we’re supposed to think about Betty is… she’s trying to live the life that Don is selling in his advertising. And it doesn’t work. Because that is not a _real_ life. But she can’t understand that, because it’s what she’s been told to want. Which is what Don _does_. She’s not ever going to be happy until she stops trying to measure her life by the expectations that advertising (and other influences) have set forth. And, by extension, Don’s life is going to be hollow, too, while _he’s_ trying for superficial appearances over something real. ---
**Author:** ![sparky\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/77aa72/32.png) [@sparky\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sparky_1)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/77 "2010-08-24T02:10:58Z")
I liked it, quite a bit more than the other episodes this season. But, the show feels different this season, and not different in a way that would jive with the new story arcs. I can’t really describe it, but the shows this season have lost the edge of the previous seasons. Aside from all that, I found this episode to be very enjoyable. I liked seeing more depth to Betty, vs just her reacting to happenings. I wish I could better grasp the difference from this season to the others that I mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/78 "2010-08-24T02:32:09Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > One of the things I think we’re supposed to think about Betty is… she’s trying to live the life that Don is selling in his advertising. And it doesn’t work. Because that is not a _real_ life. But she can’t understand that, because it’s what she’s been told to want. Which is what Don _does_. One of their arguments was when she bought an imported beer (Heineken?) for a nice dinner party as the direct result of a display aimed at upper middle class housewives Don had arranged- without her knowledge- at the grocery store where she shops. It was clear she was exactly the consumer base he was going for and she felt like a fool. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/79 "2010-08-24T02:48:01Z")
> [@sparky\_1](#): > > I liked it, quite a bit more than the other episodes this season. But, the show feels different this season, and not different in a way that would jive with the new story arcs. I can’t really describe it, but the shows this season have lost the edge of the previous seasons. > > Aside from all that, I found this episode to be very enjoyable. I liked seeing more depth to Betty, vs just her reacting to happenings. > > I wish I could better grasp the difference from this season to the others that I mentioned. I don’t know whether this is the same thing you’re talking about, but tome this season feels free of the whole issue of Don’s hiding his past from Betty. And, frankly, seeing as that was themost contrived and soap operaish aspect of the show, I don’t miss it at all. The show feels freer to benatural and organic. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119/80 "2010-08-24T02:54:46Z")
I wonder if Don or anybody else will drop acid this season. Or if Don- prime age, situation and with money for a mid-life crisis, will take to wearing Nehru jackets and driving an Austin Healey. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-05-the-chrysanthemum-and-the-sword-open-spoilers/551119.md?page=5)