# Mad-Men: 4.08 "The Summer Man" (open spoiler) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 13, 2010, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550 "2010-09-13T01:08:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/21 "2010-09-13T15:06:22Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > In Don’s voiceover he says that he never finished high school, but in a previous episode he said that he went to City College at night. More dissembling? How is that inconsistent? It’s entirely possible that he did both; dropped out of high school and later attended City College at night. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/22 "2010-09-13T15:12:24Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > > [@friedo](#): > > > > In Don’s voiceover he says that he never finished high school, but in a previous episode he said that he went to City College at night. More dissembling? > > How is that inconsistent? It’s entirely possible that he did both; dropped out of high school and later attended City College at night. Or he dropped out of high school as Dick Whitman and attended City College as Don Draper. It’s like how Superman has taken Lois, Jimmy, & Lana to visit the Fortress of Solitude, but Clark Kent’s never been there. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/23 "2010-09-13T15:18:14Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > In Don’s voiceover he says that he never finished high school, but in a previous episode he said that he went to City College at night. More dissembling? These things aren’t mutually exclusive. > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@alphaboi867](#): > > > > Joan was right in the elevator. Peggy did make her look weak and herself look like an uptight bitch. > > Joan wasn’t close to being right. Peggy fired Idiot Boy as much because he consciously and deliberately disregarded an instruction from his immediate superior as in feminine solidarity. As Don pointed out, he would have fired IB in the same situation; the only question was whether Peggy should make HERSELF look weak by sloughing said dismissal onto him. > > … > > As for Joan feeling that Peggy made her look weak: I call bullshit. Joan WAS weak. They’re both right. Joan would have found a way to get rid of Joey on her own. Peggy’s exercising her authority does undermine it. It was a zero-sum game in this respect – there was no way to resolve it without someone’s losing face. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/24 "2010-09-13T15:30:18Z")
I feel like Weiner was experiencing a few Scorsese moments at the beginning of the episode, between the voice over and the soundtrack. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/25 "2010-09-13T15:31:45Z")
Two questions: -Was Don looking at Peggy lustfully during that one drinking scene? (Incidentally I have a set of glasses identical to those- silver rim and footing- the rim needs polishing) -Are there _any_ cocktails worth drinking that contain Mountain Dew? [QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] As for Joan feeling that Peggy made her look weak: I call bullshit. Joan WAS weak. [/QUOTE] I actually thought of the line from The Godfather during that scene: > [@](#): > > VITO I swore that I would never break the peace > > MICHAEL But won’t they take that as a sign of weakness? > > VITO It _ **is** _ a sign of weakness… [QUOTE=SaharaTea] Don’s inner monologue and diary-writing came off as cheesy. [/QUOTE] I’m not a fan of either (inner monologue or diary) as a plot device. Most people’s inner monologues aren’t in complete sentences and most people’s diaries aren’t much more elaborate. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/26 "2010-09-13T15:36:29Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > > [@friedo](#): > > > > In Don’s voiceover he says that he never finished high school, but in a previous episode he said that he went to City College at night. More dissembling? > > These things aren’t mutually exclusive. > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > Joan wasn’t close to being right. Peggy fired Idiot Boy as much because he consciously and deliberately disregarded an instruction from his immediate superior as in feminine solidarity. As Don pointed out, he would have fired IB in the same situation; the only question was whether Peggy should make HERSELF look weak by sloughing said dismissal onto him. > > > > … > > > > As for Joan feeling that Peggy made her look weak: I call bullshit. Joan WAS weak. > > They’re both right. Joan would have found a way to get rid of Joey on her own. Peggy’s exercising her authority does undermine it. It was a zero-sum game in this respect – there was no way to resolve it without someone’s losing face. Whether Joan could have gotten rid of Joey on her own is irrelevant. Getting rid of him was PEGGY’S responsibility, because of his continual insubordination (of which this was simply the latest example). It is more important that learn to exercise her legitimate authority than that Joan keep “face.” And if Joan did not wish to lose face, she should have stayed at work and dealt with him after the first (horrifying!) comment rather than go home. > [@Sampiro](#): > > Two questions: > -Was Don looking at Peggy lustfully during that one drinking scene? I couldn’t tell whether Don’s longing gaze was directed at her or the booze. But given that he had a glass his ownself, I think he was appreciating Peggy, though I wouldn’t quite call it lust. [QUOTE=Sampiro] -Are there _any_ cocktails worth drinking that contain Mountain Dew? [/QUOTE] I don’t know. I’m pretty sure that Don drank more even in this episode than I have since 1999. 🙂 [QUOTE=Sampiro] [QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] As for Joan feeling that Peggy made her look weak: I call bullshit. Joan WAS weak. [/QUOTE] I actually thought of the line from The Godfather during that scene: [/quote] Quite so. Joan undermined herself throughout the episode. Hardly Peggy’s fault. Peggy tried to help her (by advising her not to go home again, I mean). > [@sampiro](#): > > [QUOTE=SaharaTea] > Don’s inner monologue and diary-writing came off as cheesy. I’m not a fan of either (inner monologue or diary) as a plot device. Most people’s inner monologues aren’t in complete sentences and most people’s diaries aren’t much more elaborate. [/QUOTE] [/QUOTE] I guess I’m the only one who really, really liked the diary bit. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/27 "2010-09-13T15:37:15Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > -Was Don looking at Peggy lustfully during that one drinking scene? I thought so at first but then I figured he was just eyeballing her enjoying her sweet, sweet liquor. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/28 "2010-09-13T16:05:56Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > -Are there _any_ cocktails worth drinking that contain Mountain Dew? I was amused by that. Nowadays, soft drinks are sold as beverages on their own. But then, their approach was to build a cocktail around Mountain Dew. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/29 "2010-09-13T16:19:59Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > > [@Sampiro](#): > > > > -Was Don looking at Peggy lustfully during that one drinking scene? > > I thought so at first but then I figured he was just eyeballing her enjoying her sweet, sweet liquor. Yeah, that whole scene was about longing for booze, nothing else. Don takes the drink Cosgrove hands him and just stares at it. He fully intends to not taste it- only hold it as an accessory, but then he see everyone else enjoying it without issue and he succumbs. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/30 "2010-09-13T16:23:37Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I guess I’m the only one who really, really liked the diary bit. Not the only one. I thought that last bit of narration from the diary was some of the most beautiful writing I have ever heard, and it really made me think of the literature from that era. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/31 "2010-09-13T16:28:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Whether Joan could have gotten rid of Joey on her own is irrelevant. Getting rid of him was PEGGY’S responsibility, because of his continual insubordination (of which this was simply the latest example). It is more important that learn to exercise her legitimate authority than that Joan keep “face.” None of this makes Joan wrong. Regardless of what anyone _should_ have done, her comment to Peggy in the elevator is still 100 percent true. Peggy’s ascendancy represents Joan’s descent. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/32 "2010-09-13T16:29:55Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > I feel like Weiner was experiencing a few Scorsese moments at the beginning of the episode, between the voice over and the soundtrack. I was wondering when (if) the show would eventually use “Satisfaction”, since it’s a big middle finger to the advertising age. I think Joan is used to her old tactics usually working, but they don’t make the same impression on the younger staff (and the fact that she’s getting older doesn’t help in that dept.). I think she would like to think she had a plan, but after the blow up to Peggy earlier (about her office as a thoroughfare), her elevator response was more catty defensiveness than genuine truth. She still has a one-dimensional perception of Peggy, though the latter didn’t help much by bringing up the subject in a way that was obviously self-congratulatory. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/33 "2010-09-13T16:44:06Z")
Joan has been jealous of Peggy ever since Peggy ascended out of the secretarial pool. I am inclined to think that she bleives Peggy slept her way there, although maybe it is just the opposite. The elevator scene had very little to do with Joan’s perceived weakness to the office and had everything to do with Joan’s lack of power compared to Peggy. She is simply jealous. ---
**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/34 "2010-09-13T16:48:17Z")
So Dr. Faye is connected with the mafia? All ‘oh, no, no!’ to Don, but I think she is. ---
**Author:** ![corkboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@corkboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/corkboard)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/35 "2010-09-13T16:52:00Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > > [@Sampiro](#): > > > > -Was Don looking at Peggy lustfully during that one drinking scene? > > I thought so at first but then I figured he was just eyeballing her enjoying her sweet, sweet liquor. I didn’t think it was either of these. He had his own drink so I doubt he’d be pining for hers. He’s already started seeing the error of his ways and has started to cut back on the booze. I think he saw Peggy with the drink and realized how much of the culture of the office revolves around alcohol. The look he gave Peggy was at the end of something of a ‘montage’ of booze- a shot of the pouring, the sipping, the enjoying, all as part of the work day. I think it just hit him that this woman he cares about as sort of a mentor/mentee way is already accustomed to the office booze culture, and I think it worries him. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/36 "2010-09-13T16:52:45Z")
_She’s_ not connected, but her father knows people and is a “two-bit gangster.” She said as much. ---
**Author:** ![rikc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c57346/32.png) [@rikc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rikc)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/37 "2010-09-13T16:55:21Z")
To me, the episode felt like it was packing in way too much. It certainly wasn’t bad (and **LawMonkey** ’s right that anything average will be a little pale after last week’s episode), but Don’s overhaul of his life seems like so much, so fast. We haven’t even seen him sober enough to acknowledge his latest drunken disaster and he’s already at the pool and getting nervous around drinks and writing (pretty ham-fisted) memoirs? How much time has passed between episodes? This has been an issue I’ve had with a few episodes this season; the pacing just seems strange. There was enough content in this episode for two, and it also seems a bit early in the season to have Don already kicking his drinking problem. But that’s an easy complaint to file when I don’t know what’s about to happen. (And, as a friend pointed out, we’re nearing the end of the fourth season; this is when stuff is _supposed_ to happen in the series.) Can somebody help me with this, though: I was confused by Joan trying to intimidate the boys club with Vietnam. Vietnam was never a popular war, but she seemed aware of the impending tragedy in a way that felt like she was talking from the future. I’m not much with history, though, so maybe I’m missing something? Was there a “our men are going to get drafted and killed” attitude from the start, or is Joan just talking out of fear for her husband and just getting it right? When did we get a vending machine? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/38 "2010-09-13T16:59:08Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Whether Joan could have gotten rid of Joey on her own is irrelevant. Getting rid of him was PEGGY’S responsibility, because of his continual insubordination (of which this was simply the latest example). It is more important that learn to exercise her legitimate authority than that Joan keep “face.” > > None of this makes Joan wrong. Regardless of what anyone _should_ have done, her comment to Peggy in the elevator is still 100 percent true. Peggy’s ascendancy represents Joan’s descent. What makes Joan wrong is the gratuitous dig at Peggy – calling her a humorless bitch, and not even being woman enough to do so directly. Thinking to defend Joan, Peggy set out to get Joey chastised (not fired) but what she was thinking of as their mutual boss, Don. Don, in a refreshing and characteristic-of-his-former-self move, pointed out that Joey’s behavior merited worse a rebuke, but also that Peggy would weaken her own position by seeming to go to Don to get that to happen. By doing so, Peggy asserted her genuine power in the office, rather than the cloying, manipulative pseudo-power Joan is used to employing. (The fact that Peggy’s power is derivative of Don’s is irrelevant. At the old agency, Don’s power was derivative of Roger & Bert’s. That’s how hierarchy’s work.) Joan’s claim that Peggy’s actions made her look like “just another secretary” are silly, because Joan has exposed herself as being just that but not claiming power she has a genuine right to. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/39 "2010-09-13T17:05:08Z")
The U.S. involvement in all-out war began in March 1965. The draft was already on, I believe. And WWII is within the living memory of most of the people in the show, and thus the idea that when the nation goes to war, pretty much every young man gets sucked in. ---
**Author:** ![smaje1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47774/32.png) [@smaje1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smaje1)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/40 "2010-09-13T17:05:43Z")
> [@rikc](#): > > When did we get a vending machine? I love that this was Pete’s only line. Try mixing Mountain Dew, Orange Crush, and vodka. Yummers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550.md?page=3)