# Mad-Men: 4.08 "The Summer Man" (open spoiler) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 13, 2010, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550 "2010-09-13T01:08:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/41 "2010-09-13T17:07:43Z")
> [@rikc](#): > > Can somebody help me with this, though: I was confused by Joan trying to intimidate the boys club with Vietnam. Vietnam was never a popular war, but she seemed aware of the impending tragedy in a way that felt like she was talking from the future. I’m not much with history, though, so maybe I’m missing something? Was there a “our men are going to get drafted and killed” attitude from the start, or is Joan just talking out of fear for her husband and just getting it right? Joan is wicked smart and she has a vested interest in the way the war is developing. We’ve already seen footage of Vietnam on Don’s tv, and he explicitly says that he hears about it everywhere he goes. Joan is probably actually paying attention to the footage she’s seeing and knows which way the wind is blowing. Especially as late as June 1965. ---
**Author:** ![lisacurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/41988e/32.png) [@lisacurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisacurl)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/42 "2010-09-13T17:08:02Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Harry Crane’s not really gay is he? Because I can understand why Joey felt he was coming onto him. I have the feeling Joey thinks everyone secretly wants to fuck him. Joan feels her time slipping away. She’s in her mid-thirties at a time when the focus of the world is shifting to youth. Time was, those boorish boys would have been too awed by her magnificent presence to behave like that… remember the first season of the show? Now they are treating her like an “old madam”. Her response to Peggy was based in the way she learned to deal with the business world – she even said she could have gotten rid of Joey by having dinner with the client, essentially flirting her way into getting what she wanted. Peggy is dealing with things directly and it chafes at Joan. Of course, what Joan said is also true… Peggy can amass all the power she wants, but she’s still subject to a pornographic putdown whenever the boys want to put her in her place. I think, too, that Joan was put out that she didn’t have the authority to fire Joey on the spot. Her eyes flared when he came out with that ‘walking around the office looking like you want to be raped’ comment… especially since she was raped in the office by her fiance. The more I think about it, it’s not strange that Joan had a big emotional connection to Marilyn Monroe. They both seem to have an air of fatalism, that they can’t stop what happens to them because it’s the men who have the power. Another example of Joan being mentally in another era when times are changing. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/43 "2010-09-13T17:11:00Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Joan’s claim that Peggy’s actions made her look like “just another secretary” are silly, because Joan has exposed herself as being just that but not claiming power she has a genuine right to. What power does Joan have the right to claim except whatever power she has always exercised? She’s right. Having Peggy act “for” her reveals that Joan is powerless in the new world. Whereas, under the old system, Joan could work the levers to not only get her way but let people know that it was dangerous to cross her. As far as whether it was “right” for her to snap at Peggy … what do you expect? Joan’s seeing her star decline. It is in her nature to express her displeasure. What she says is still true. Peggy will experience both the upside and the downside as fallout. Yes, she gets to wield more authority. But she will also be perceived as a humourless bitch. That kind of thing still happens 45 years later. And no, Joan wasn’t calling her a humourless bitch on her own behalf. She had the same view of the cartoon that Peggy had. ---
**Author:** ![lisacurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/41988e/32.png) [@lisacurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisacurl)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/44 "2010-09-13T17:13:14Z")
I loved Peggy’s comeback to Joey’s threat to ‘see what Don has to say about’ her firing him: “Don doesn’t even know who you are.” ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/45 "2010-09-13T17:13:18Z")
This is going to sound like a stupid thing to ask, and perhaps it betrays my utter ignorance of the sartorial expectations of the time, but why on earth were Peggy and Joan dragging coats back and forth to the office that time of year? Last week’s episode was at the end of May, and they’re talking about it almost being summer. I understand wanting a a light jacket in the early morning before spring is really established well, but a coat around/after Memorial Day seems to be rather a lot of overkill. ---
**Author:** ![rikc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c57346/32.png) [@rikc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rikc)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/46 "2010-09-13T17:17:07Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > rather than the cloying, manipulative pseudo-power Joan is used to employing. I loved that. One dinner with a man is Joan’s strategy for retaliation. So sad. > [@acsenray](#): > > The U.S. involvement in all-out war began in March 1965. The draft was already on, I believe. And WWII is within the living memory of most of the people in the show, and thus the idea that when the nation goes to war, pretty much every young man gets sucked in. > [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > Joan is wicked smart and she has a vested interest in the way the war is developing. We’ve already seen footage of Vietnam on Don’s tv, and he explicitly says that he hears about it everywhere he goes. Joan is probably actually paying attention to the footage she’s seeing and knows which way the wind is blowing. Especially as late as June 1965. Thanks for this, that clears everything up. I hadn’t caught the line about “hearing it everywhere,” all I remembered was the TV footage. Thanks! > [@smaje1](#): > > I love that this was Pete’s only line. I loved that he was “in the midst” of a call. Pete is the best. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/47 "2010-09-13T17:18:01Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > Joan’s claim that Peggy’s actions made her look like “just another secretary” are silly, because Joan has exposed herself as being just that but not claiming power she has a genuine right to. > > What power does Joan have the right to claim except whatever power she has always exercised? She’s right. Having Peggy act “for” her reveals that Joan is powerless in the new world. Whereas, under the old system, Joan could work the levers to not only get her way but let people know that it was dangerous to cross her. > > As far as whether it was “right” for her to snap at Peggy … what do you expect? Joan’s seeing her star decline. It is in her nature to express her displeasure. What she says is still true. Peggy will experience both the upside and the downside as fallout. Yes, she gets to wield more authority. But she will also be perceived as a humourless bitch. That kind of thing still happens 45 years later. > > And no, Joan wasn’t calling her a humourless bitch on her own behalf. She had the same view of the cartoon that Peggy had. One thing, certainly, was that Peggy was a little too proud of herself as they got into the elevator. The other problem is that Peggy didn’t really stand up for herself, partially because I think she is still coming to grips with what it is she stands for. Joan is the old school trying to manifest power through traditioanl women’s roles in the office, Peggy is the new wave, trying to be able to act openly with their power in non-traditional roles. The difference is that Joan sees the her role very clearly, while Peggy doesn’t completely understand hers. With 40 years of hindsight of women in the businessplace it is easy to think how Peggy could have defended herself effectively to Joan. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/48 "2010-09-13T17:18:52Z")
> [@rikc](#): > > Was there a “our men are going to get drafted and killed” attitude from the start, or is Joan just talking out of fear for her husband and just getting it right? I’m no expert (and was born in '73) but all the previous US engagements from that century involved a draft so the safe money would be on another draft for Vietnam. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/49 "2010-09-13T17:45:01Z")
[quote=“smaje1, post:40, topic:553550”] > [@rikc](#): > > Try mixing Mountain Dew, Orange Crush, and vodka. Yummers. And it has three ingredients, which elevates it to the level of a cocktail rather than an emergency. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/50 "2010-09-13T17:58:34Z")
> [@rikc](#): > > When did we get a vending machine? “I feel like Margaret Mead” ---
**Author:** ![lexi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lexi/32/6806_2.png) [@lexi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lexi)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/51 "2010-09-13T18:18:57Z")
Although Don’s narrative and swimming and getting his groove back was part of this episode, to me, this episode was really about the women and they way they hold power. Joan’s way represents the old way things were done. Women weren’t supposed to be overtly assertive or powerful, but they could subtly manipulate things behind the scenes. Joan being called mom, and the madam of the bordello signified that she was now considered “older” by the young men, and the way she would have solved things are the way things used to be done. Peggy’s way is the new way - and she can show power overtly. I think Joan was upset because she would have preferred to do things the old ways, and yes - she would have looked better and Peggy wouldn’t have looked like a humourless bitch, but Joan doesn’t quite see that the times are changing, and women were starting to wield power, and Peggy’s way of doing things was right in those new times. Compared to Joan, Peggy does have power. Joan can manipulate, but Joan manipulates those in power and does not and will not ever have it herself. Then you have Bethany trying to manipulate Don into seeing her more with the BJ in the taxi, and her parting line. Faye’s date, she was more aggressive, and more outward - but still playing the game in teasing Don into asking her on a proper date, and using the story of the wind & sun. Lastly Betty has no power, as her friend Francine tells Betty - Don has nothing to lose, but Betty has everything to lose. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/52 "2010-09-13T18:40:56Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > > [@rikc](#): > > > > Was there a “our men are going to get drafted and killed” attitude from the start, or is Joan just talking out of fear for her husband and just getting it right? > > I’m no expert (and was born in '73) but all the previous US engagements from that century involved a draft so the safe money would be on another draft for Vietnam. The draft [ended briefly after WWII](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_States#Cold_War)& was reinstated in 1948; it ended in 1972, although men must still register. More were called up during the undeclared wars that became fashionable, but we still had the Cold War. Deferments kept changing throughout that period. Some men joined the service of their choice rather than wait to be drafted; GI benefits were worthwhile. I’d think that some of the younger guys, even in SC, would have served. It really was pretty routine. With Vietnam heating up, young guys (& those who cared for them) started paying more attention. Remember Elvis? ---
**Author:** ![Aw\_Hamburgers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/47e85d/32.png) [@Aw\_Hamburgers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aw_Hamburgers)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/53 "2010-09-13T18:51:39Z")
I’m still confused on exactly why Joan’s husband has to go to Vietnam. I remember that he didn’t get the head-resident position, but how does that translate into him not being able to be a doctor without going to war? Couldn’t he just have been a resident at a lower level then work at maybe a not-as-prestigious hospital? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/54 "2010-09-13T19:05:38Z")
He found the Army the quickest and easiest route for him to get to his desired career goal. It’s not necessarily unthinkable. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/55 "2010-09-13T19:51:20Z")
> [@Aw\_Hamburgers](#): > > I’m still confused on exactly why Joan’s husband has to go to Vietnam. > > I remember that he didn’t get the head-resident position, but how does that translate into him not being able to be a doctor without going to war? Couldn’t he just have been a resident at a lower level then work at maybe a not-as-prestigious hospital? He wants to be a surgeon, and he can’t in his civilian sphere. The military during war has limitless opportunities to cut on somebody. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/56 "2010-09-13T19:52:02Z")
> [@Aw\_Hamburgers](#): > > I’m still confused on exactly why Joan’s husband has to go to Vietnam. > > I remember that he didn’t get the head-resident position, but how does that translate into him not being able to be a doctor without going to war? Couldn’t he just have been a resident at a lower level then work at maybe a not-as-prestigious hospital? He wants to be a surgeon, not just a doc. And the Aaaaarmy Training will allow him to be a surgeon because he says they’ve got lax standards compared to NYC. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/57 "2010-09-13T19:58:06Z")
At one of the [open discussions](http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2010/09/13/mad-men-a-conversation-season-4-episode-8/) I’ve been following this season (and to be honest, one of the more disappointing/less insightful ones), someone mentioned something about “the symbolism of the vending machine.” Aside from serving as a bit of a MacGuffin-like plot driver, and illustrating that SDCP is still counting every penny, I can’t see much in the way of symbolism. Anyone want to help me out? ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/58 "2010-09-13T19:59:22Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > And Don? the proper response was “You mean MY garage attached to MY house that you’ve been living in for the last eight months like a couple of squatters?” I thought maybe I had missed something about the resolution of the house. But I took it as henry saying, essentially, “Hey Dion, get your stuff out of what used to be your garage, cause I’m parking my boat in it (subconsciously: and while you’re at it, get your stuff out of my woman’s mind)” ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/59 "2010-09-13T20:01:40Z")
> [@lisacurl](#): > > > [@Sampiro](#): > > > > Harry Crane’s not really gay is he? Because I can understand why Joey felt he was coming onto him. > > I have the feeling Joey thinks everyone secretly wants to fuck him. Well, he is [quite cute](http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kyjmmiDBvb1qzfyi7o1_400.jpg). How Freudian was his character’s rant about his mother being like Joan, btw? [Per wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties#By_Year), 400 U.S. men were killed in Vietnam prior to 1965 and 1,863 were killed during 1965, so the war was really heating up. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550/60 "2010-09-13T20:04:17Z")
Henry says that he could call some movers and deduct the cost from the rent so they must be paying Don to live there. I’m sure that’s a fun check to cut every month. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-08-the-summer-man-open-spoiler/553550.md?page=4)