# Mad-Men: 4.09 "The Beautiful Girls" (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 20, 2010, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352 "2010-09-20T01:39:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/21 "2010-09-20T16:45:09Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > Sally also came out wearing what looked like one of Don’s tshirts as a pajama top. That’s usually a morning after typething. Presumably she does visit Don’s place enough to have at least pajamas there. Wouldn’t surprise me if she doesn’t. I had the impression that he has the kids once every two weeks. This was an episode that made me dislike Draper, by the way. In an ideal world he’d man up and take Sally in at the very least. And the t-shirt-as-top thing got my attention too, though she surely (hopefully) did not understand what it looked like. But the enormous despair of what she was doing, her desperation to prove to her father that she could be a good little girl, her attempt to be a wife-substitute in making him breakfast – broke my heart, it did. Part of me wishes the woman from the train had given Don more of a verbal smackdown. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/22 "2010-09-20T16:47:33Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > > [@Sampiro](#): > > > > Hadn’t noticed before what a swan neck Megan has. I wonder why Sally liked her so much when she didn’t like Faye. > > Sally liked Megan because she wasn’t telling Sally things that Sally did not want to hear (i.e., that she had to go home), _and_ because she doesn’t perceive Megan as one of the women her dad is sleeping with. I agree. From the conversation she had with Don, she thinks that he’s going to marry Faye. (If she’s hoping that her parents will get back together, that would make that less likely.) ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/23 "2010-09-20T16:48:08Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > > > Sally also came out wearing what looked like one of Don’s tshirts as a pajama top. That’s usually a morning after typething. Presumably she does visit Don’s place enough to have at least pajamas there. > > Wouldn’t surprise me if she doesn’t. I had the impression that he has the kids once every two weeks. > > This was an episode that made me dislike Draper, by the way. In an ideal world he’d man up and take Sally in at the very least. Don’s hands were tied. Even if he had any idea of how to raise a kid (and he’s admitted that he doesn’t know what to do with them) Betty would never in a million years be the woman on the block whose child was _taken_ by her father. She’d fight, and what judge would give Don custody over Betty? Don “manning up” to take Sally in wouldn’t actually do her any favors. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/24 "2010-09-20T16:50:50Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > Wouldn’t surprise me if she doesn’t. I had the impression that he has the kids once every two weeks. > > > > This was an episode that made me dislike Draper, by the way. In an ideal world he’d man up and take Sally in at the very least. > > Don’s hands were tied. Even if he had any idea of how to raise a kid (and he’s admitted that he doesn’t know what to do with them) Betty would never in a million years be the woman on the block whose child was _taken_ by her father. She’d fight, and what judge would give Don custody over Betty? Don “manning up” to take Sally in wouldn’t actually do her any favors. I think you underestimate Betty’s loathing for her little girl. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/25 "2010-09-20T16:52:54Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > This was an episode that made me dislike Draper, by the way. In an ideal world he’d man up and take Sally in at the very least. What makes you think he has that option? Betty would breathe fire. > [@](#): > > Part of me wishes the woman from the train had given Don more of a verbal smackdown. And Don would have learned what exactly from that? That he’s expected to accomplish the impossible – i.e., persuade Betty to let Sally live with him? Put her in a New York City public school in 1965 when the city is on its way down to the bottom? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/26 "2010-09-20T16:54:11Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I think you underestimate Betty’s loathing for her little girl. I think you overestimate Betty’s capacity to make rational decisions. Regardless of how she feels about Sally, she’d go to war with Don over this. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/27 "2010-09-20T16:56:40Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > I think you underestimate Betty’s loathing for her little girl. > > I think you overestimate Betty’s capacity to make rational decisions. Regardless of how she feels about Sally, she’d go to war with Don over this. Absolutely. There’s no way she loathes Sally more than she wants to beat Don. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/28 "2010-09-20T16:58:03Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > > > Don’s hands were tied. Even if he had any idea of how to raise a kid (and he’s admitted that he doesn’t know what to do with them) Betty would never in a million years be the woman on the block whose child was _taken_ by her father. She’d fight, and what judge would give Don custody over Betty? Don “manning up” to take Sally in wouldn’t actually do her any favors. > > I think you underestimate Betty’s loathing for her little girl. However Betty feels about Sally, if Don took her, what would people say? It would make Betty look like a bad mother. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/29 "2010-09-20T17:01:51Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > I think you underestimate Betty’s loathing for her little girl. > > However Betty feels about Sally, if Don took her, what would people say? It would make Betty look like a bad mother. Y’all are probably right. Don still needs to man up and be more of a part of his child’s life, though. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/30 "2010-09-20T17:41:39Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > And the t-shirt-as-top thing got my attention too, though she surely (hopefully) did not understand what it looked like. But the enormous despair of what she was doing, her desperation to prove to her father that she could be a good little girl, her attempt to be a wife-substitute in making him breakfast – broke my heart, it did. “That’s a bottle of rum.” ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/31 "2010-09-20T17:45:30Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > And the t-shirt-as-top thing got my attention too, though she surely (hopefully) did not understand what it looked like. But the enormous despair of what she was doing, her desperation to prove to her father that she could be a good little girl, her attempt to be a wife-substitute in making him breakfast – broke my heart, it did. > > “That’s a bottle of rum.” That bothered me, as it bespeaks a lack of interest in making his home kid-appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/32 "2010-09-20T17:49:42Z")
Maybe it does and maybe it doesn’t. The fact is that he doesn’t have kids living in his house permanently. Why should he live as if he did? ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/33 "2010-09-20T17:50:40Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@Mr.Moto](#): > > > > “That’s a bottle of rum.” > > That bothered me, as it bespeaks a lack of interest in making his home kid-appropriate. Is the booze locked away in Betty’s house? I didn’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/34 "2010-09-20T17:51:11Z")
Well, in my house the kids know how to keep their hands off of Daddy’s “grownup drink.” Kidding! ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/35 "2010-09-20T17:53:44Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > …Put her in a New York City public school in 1965 when the city is on its way down to the bottom? Well, to be fair Don probally can afford private school for Sally. Everything else still stands; Sally living with Don fulltime just isn’t an option in 1965 (barring Betty’s death or institutionalization). Even in 2010 courts are highly reluctant to grant full custody to the father. [QUOTE=salinqmind] I’m a little surprised Dr. Faye “isn’t good with kids”. One would think she would come to the rescue, and she didn’t. Or couldn’t But that’s what’s interesting about MM, it’s not a typical soapy series and the stories don’t always go where you think they will… [/QUOTE] She’s at least 30, and still not married. It looks like she made a conscious decision to go with grad school & a career over marriage & family. And she’s been very succesful in her career (in a male dominated field). Then she has to deal with a child (something which “should come naturally for a woman”), and fails. I don’t see Don & Faye getting married, but it would be interesting to see Don in a marriage/long-term relationship with a woman totally different than Betty. One with her own career. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/36 "2010-09-20T18:17:26Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > > [@acsenray](#): > > > > …Put her in a New York City public school in 1965 when the city is on its way down to the bottom? > > Well, to be fair Don probally can afford private school for Sally. Everything else still stands; Sally living with Don fulltime just isn’t an option in 1965 (barring Betty’s death or institutionalization). Even in 2010 courts are highly reluctant to grant full custody to the father. I seem to recall Betty’s attorney opining that Don might well get the children when she was considering filing for divorce. Anyway, in a just world, Aslan would whisk Betty, Pete, Joey, and Glenn into Narnia and send them on a quest to save the lands from, I don’t know, being stomped flat by the Northern Giants or something and whiel they would succeed,only Glenn would return to Earth. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/37 "2010-09-20T18:24:34Z")
Yeah, the attorney did warn her of that. But I think a judge would be more inclined to give Betty Frances, married to a stable man in the suburbs custody of Sally rather than a single-father who lives in the village. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/38 "2010-09-20T18:48:52Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > Yeah, the attorney did warn her of that. But I think a judge would be more inclined to give Betty Frances, married to a stable man in the suburbs custody of Sally rather than a single-father who lives in the village. Then there’s Betty’s nuclear option; out Don as army deserter Dick Whitman. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/39 "2010-09-20T18:55:15Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > That bothered me, as it bespeaks a lack of interest in making his home kid-appropriate. **Skald** , you’re bringing your 2010 expectations into Mad Men’s 1960s world. _No one_ would think that a man should take the children in a divorce (unless he’s remarried), or that the liquor at home should be put someplace safe from the kids. Heck, we’ve seen pregnant women _smoking_ on this show as a sign of how different the times were. The only way Don would have ever gotten the children was if he’d’ve had some woman to take care of them – hired, or married. And the booze wasn’t hidden or locked away during my own childhood in the 70s; it’s surely not something to be expected of a man in the 60s. The thing about this episode that really struck home was that every time that Don faced a problem with Sally… he turned to a woman to fix it. And they accepted that. In fact, all the women trailed along to the lobby to make sure Sally was okay – where were all the _men_ in the office, then? Sally _had_ just had a screaming fit tearing through the entire place, after all. The only person who actually expected _Don_ to step up and deal with his daughter was… Betty. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/40 "2010-09-20T20:30:27Z")
Sally’s bright to pick up on the fact Faye knew Don had peanut butter and where it was. [QUOTE=Mr. Moto] “That’s a bottle of rum.” [/QUOTE] Does it taste bad? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352.md?page=3)