# Mad-Men: 4.09 "The Beautiful Girls" (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 20, 2010, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352 "2010-09-20T01:39:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/101 "2010-09-22T17:41:56Z")
> [@jellyblue](#): > > > [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > > > The secretary he had sex with left the company. > > > > I agree that Sally was shown in a bit of an odd light this episode. Somehow the way her legs were shot . . . dunno, made me feel vaguely uncomfortable. > > A couple of people have mentioned Sally looking a bit…sexy. I thought so too from time to time, but a couple things: > [ul] > [li]the actress is growing up & its unavoidable with the fashion of the time[/li][li]people then were used to “sexy women” looking like Betty or Joan, not adult-sized young girls (we’d _just_ be getting Twiggy at this point, no?)[/li][li]hi Opal[/li][/ul] > > I was more struck about how well the actress did in putting some “Betty” in her mannerisms, especially when opposing her father: “There’s no reason I can’t stay.” I can’t decide whether she’s mimicking Betty or whether Betty’s just always argued like a stubborn and obstinate child. Hmmm… I also was struck by how well she channeled Betty. Both good acting and directing. “Okay, kid, now put some more _bitch_ into it!” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/102 "2010-09-22T17:48:53Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > My wife thinks the new secretary is the same one he had sex with in a drunken stupor; I think it’s a new victim for him. Who’s right? I hate to sound like a threadshitter, and I’m not asking this snarkily, but . . . did you wife miss several episodes or something? How could there even be debate about this? Don sleeping with Alison, her being upset about the lack of acknowledgement, her eventually breaking down crying and throwing stuff at him and huffing out and quitting, and her sexiness opposite, Ms. Blankenship, being hired in her place, were MAJOR plot points stretched out over several episodes. I ask because I somewhat frequently hear questions like this that make me wonder if the person is paying attention at all. Sort of like when people speculate if Gene’s daddy could be Betty’s one-night stand in the bar. Whom she slept with AFTER she found out she was pregnant, and probably because she knew she was pregnant. ---
**Author:** ![AmunRa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AmunRa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AmunRa)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/103 "2010-09-22T18:23:08Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > > [@Mr.Moto](#): > > > > Nitpick: officers don’t have a term of enlistment. > > I didn’t know that. How do they leave the service? Can they put in notice like at a civilian job or… what exactly? Korea was a bit before my time, but in the modern army yes, they basically give notice. It is slightly complicated by the fact that young officers almost always sign a contract requiring several years in exchange for repayment of student debt, but after that time commissioned officers are essentially able to give notice and leave. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/104 "2010-09-22T18:31:51Z")
> [@astro](#): > > It the “get out of the house” thing comes to a head Henry’s paying rent now. > [@AmunRa](#): > > Korea was a bit before my time, but in the modern army yes, they basically give notice. It is slightly complicated by the fact that young officers almost always sign a contract requiring several years in exchange for repayment of student debt, but after that time commissioned officers are essentially able to give notice and leave. Isn’t there some limitation of this during wartime, especially if there’s a draft in effect? And my understanding is that a commission is for life – any officer can be recalled into service if needed. ---
**Author:** ![AmunRa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AmunRa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AmunRa)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/105 "2010-09-22T18:43:56Z")
I’m sure there was a limit to it during the draft, as I said I only have knowledge of the modern military. In the modern army I am not aware of any restrictions due to the current war per se, although I doubt they would let an officer resign while deployed. I was not an officer, so I don’t know the specifics, however I don’t believe that it is true that an officer is commissioned for life. As far as I know what you are probably thinking of is retirement; that is a retired officer is still technically commissioned and can be called back. If you are willing to give up all of your benefits you are certainly allowed to resign your commission, and a non-career officer with less than 20 years of service wouldn’t be giving up much in the way of benefits by resigning. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/106 "2010-09-22T18:54:29Z")
> [@lisacurl](#): > > …Joan was shown on a bus in next week’s preview… heading down to visit her husband during his after-basic leave? Depending on the timeline, she’d need to have sex with Dr. Rapist to have plausible deniability if she got knocked up by Roger… Seeing as how Greg’s going directly from basic training to Vietnam it could be a trip she planned before her tryst with Roger. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/107 "2010-09-22T19:10:38Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > > [@Chefguy](#): > > > > My wife thinks the new secretary is the same one he had sex with in a drunken stupor; I think it’s a new victim for him. Who’s right? > > I hate to sound like a threadshitter, and I’m not asking this snarkily, but . . . did you wife miss several episodes or something? How could there even be debate about this? Don sleeping with Alison, her being upset about the lack of acknowledgement, her eventually breaking down crying and throwing stuff at him and huffing out and quitting, and her sexiness opposite, Ms. Blankenship, being hired in her place, were MAJOR plot points stretched out over several episodes. > > I ask because I somewhat frequently hear questions like this that make me wonder if the person is paying attention at all. Sort of like when people speculate if Gene’s daddy could be Betty’s one-night stand in the bar. Whom she slept with AFTER she found out she was pregnant, and probably because she knew she was pregnant. Not a problem. Keeping the names and faces straight is sometimes difficult when the actors are only on for a couple of episodes. I reminded her that the woman quit and Don told Joan to let her cool off and then bring her back. Joan asked if that’s really what he wants, and Don said “No”. I didn’t think she even looked at all like Allison (I didn’t remember her character name), but my memory for names and faces isn’t all that good, either. After the brief discussion about Sally showing skin, I had to look up the actor who is playing her. Sometimes young-looking actors are cast in younger roles: she could be 16 for all we know. But it turns out that she really is 12-years old. So now I’m wondering if the director is playing to the notion of a distressed child who is trying to entice daddy back in any way she can. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/108 "2010-09-22T19:20:10Z")
Thanks for the explanation, **Chefguy**. That does make sense. Actually, immediately after I posted, I thought about how so many people on the show look so similar. Like, basically, all the young secretaries except Joan are interchangable to me: Allison = Jane = Meghan. And Bethany looks like them too. I also initially had trouble between the copywriters/account execs at the old firm–Kurt looks like Schmitty looks like Ken looks like Pete. And Paul and Harry looked alike too. Does anyone else have this problem? Is it just cause they all have the same hair and dress the same (esp. the secretaries) and I use clothing/hair to ID characters on TV a lot? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/109 "2010-09-22T19:20:32Z")
> [@](#): > > So now I’m wondering if the director is playing to the notion of a distressed child who is trying to entice daddy back in any way she can. That sounds like a reach to me. In any case, Betty exercises pretty strict power over Sally’s choices. I think it’s just a matter of the style of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/110 "2010-09-22T19:22:01Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > Does anyone else have this problem? Is it just cause they all have the same hair and dress the same (esp. the secretaries) and I use clothing/hair to ID characters on TV a lot? If you’re using their dress and hairstyles to identify them, then I can see where you’re having trouble. I don’t think any of the people you mentioned look alike. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/111 "2010-09-22T19:30:35Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > > [@Gestalt](#): > > > > Does anyone else have this problem? Is it just cause they all have the same hair and dress the same (esp. the secretaries) and I use clothing/hair to ID characters on TV a lot? > > If you’re using their dress and hairstyles to identify them, then I can see where you’re having trouble. I don’t think any of the people you mentioned look alike. Really? Even Jane and Meghan? [Meghan is in the orange dress](http://www.libertasfilmmagazine.com/mad-men-season-four-episode-4-the-rejected/) [Jane](http://www.ugo.com/tv/women-of-mad-men-jane-siegel) And they both (esp. Meghan) bear a bit of a resemblance to [Rachel](http://www.splendora.com/mad_men_season_3/rachel_menken) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/112 "2010-09-22T19:38:05Z")
They have similarities in a broad sense – they’re all slim brunettes – but I have no trouble telling them apart. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/113 "2010-09-22T19:42:25Z")
I guess I see slim brunettes with large blue eyes, high, well-defined cheekbones, small chins, and straight noses. Who also happen to have the same haircut. Which doesn’t help matters. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/114 "2010-09-22T19:46:55Z")
Well, eyes are too small for me to discern their color in pictures/movies/TV … but generally speaking I don’t see any of those features because perhaps I don’t take notice of individual features like that in general … I just see their faces as a whole and to me they are immediately distinguishable. I guess my view is more gestalt than yours. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/115 "2010-09-22T20:02:00Z")
Could be a very mild case of face blindness, which I suspect I’ve got a touch of–I have this same problem, not just on Mad Men but in general. It’s more pronounced with women–I had the same moment of Allison/Megan confusion when she showed up in the conference room. What’s more, it took me a long while to figure out whether the blonde in Don’s bed was Dr. Faye, whatzername that went down on him in the taxi last ep, or some random hooker we’d never seen before. If a female character on a show with a lot of them makes a significant hairstyle or wardrobe change mid-episode, there’s a good chance I’ll not recognize her. Happens less with men, but that may be because guys change their hair and clothing styles less frequently… . ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/116 "2010-09-22T20:13:16Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > So now I’m wondering if the director is playing to the notion of a distressed child who is trying to entice daddy back in any way she can. > > That sounds like a reach to me. In any case, Betty exercises pretty strict power over Sally’s choices. I think it’s just a matter of the style of the time. It could be, but camera angles are not an accident unless you’re a completely incompetent director. His treatment of children in this series is a trifle disturbing to me. First we had creepy-boy being inappropriate with Betty, then we had Sally masturbating, and now the long, low thigh shots of a 12-year old girl. Taken individually these are not worth notice, but taken together it just seems a bit skeevy to me. I’m not accusing the creators of dabbling in child porn, but I question his motives. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/117 "2010-09-22T20:51:23Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > > [@Chefguy](#): > > > > My wife thinks the new secretary is the same one he had sex with in a drunken stupor; I think it’s a new victim for him. Who’s right? > > I hate to sound like a threadshitter, and I’m not asking this snarkily, but . . . did you wife miss several episodes or something? How could there even be debate about this? Don sleeping with Alison, her being upset about the lack of acknowledgement, her eventually breaking down crying and throwing stuff at him and huffing out and quitting, and her sexiness opposite, Ms. Blankenship, being hired in her place, were MAJOR plot points stretched out over several episodes. > > I ask because I somewhat frequently hear questions like this that make me wonder if the person is paying attention at all. Sort of like when people speculate if Gene’s daddy could be Betty’s one-night stand in the bar. Whom she slept with AFTER she found out she was pregnant, and probably because she knew she was pregnant. So, when is Peggy going to her sister’s house to bring back her baby by Pete? \*\*I’m joking! \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/118 "2010-09-22T21:26:29Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > His treatment of children in this series is a trifle disturbing to me. First we had creepy-boy being inappropriate with Betty, then we had Sally masturbating, and now the long, low thigh shots of a 12-year old girl. Taken individually these are not worth notice, but taken together it just seems a bit skeevy to me. I’m not accusing the creators of dabbling in child porn, but I question his motives. What possible improper motives might he have, in your view? ---
**Author:** ![lisacurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/41988e/32.png) [@lisacurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisacurl)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/119 "2010-09-22T21:40:34Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > It could be, but camera angles are not an accident unless you’re a completely incompetent director. His treatment of children in this series is a trifle disturbing to me. First we had creepy-boy being inappropriate with Betty, then we had Sally masturbating, and now the long, low thigh shots of a 12-year old girl. Taken individually these are not worth notice, but taken together it just seems a bit skeevy to me. I’m not accusing the creators of dabbling in child porn, but I question his motives. I noticed nothing out of the ordinary in the way that Sally was filmed. I actually appreciate Weiner’s frankness about how parental dysfunction can mess with pubescent kids’ developing sexuality. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352/120 "2010-09-22T21:50:28Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > Does anyone else have this problem? Is it just cause they all have the same hair and dress the same (esp. the secretaries) and I use clothing/hair to ID characters on TV a lot? Yes! For a while there every skinny brunette woman looked alike. I wish they’d at least allow a mix of blonde hair in there, too, instead of just flaxen. When Don woke up with Dr. Faye I really had no clue how to react until I heard her accent (I thought it might be the Barbizon girl). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-09-the-beautiful-girls-open-spoilers/554352.md?page=7)