# Mad-Men: 4.11 "Chinese Wall" (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 4, 2010, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-11-chinese-wall-open-spoilers/555961 "2010-10-04T00:55:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-11-chinese-wall-open-spoilers/555961/41 "2010-10-04T17:53:58Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > > [@alphaboi867](#): > > > > letting her give a presentation with lipstick on her teeth? Ordinarily that would just be a dick thing to do to her; in a crisis like this it’s an act of contempt to the whole agency. > > I don’t see any reason to believe that Stan “let” her do it. Harry was sitting right next to her and wasn’t able to clue her in until after the meeting was over. Recall that she asked Stan how she looked, and he saw the lipstick all over her teeth before they went into the meeting and said nothing to her. He was quite deliberately letting her make a sloppy impression. He is a remorseless shit, which is kind of unusual as there aren’t too many one note characters in Mad Men . ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-11-chinese-wall-open-spoilers/555961/42 "2010-10-04T17:56:33Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I don’t see any reason to believe that Stan “let” her do it. Harry was sitting right next to her and wasn’t able to clue her in until after the meeting was over. Peggy asked Stan before the meeting how she looked (with obvious lipstick) and Stan gave her a thumbs up. It’s was really obvious. Anyone else think that the dead guy’s daughter looked like an older Sally? ---
**Author:** ![AutumnLeaves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/45deac/32.png) [@AutumnLeaves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AutumnLeaves)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-11-chinese-wall-open-spoilers/555961/43 "2010-10-04T17:58:47Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > I wonder if Megan is also under the impression that Peggy slept with Don. She did reveal she has ambitions beyond being a secretary or housewife. That could make for an interesting storyline next season; Peggy no longer being the only woman copywriter. It seemed very planned, and not only that, but she was basically using all Don’s seduction tricks and throwing them right back at him. And it worked. It reminded me a lot of Jane Sterling a few seasons ago, the way she played Roger to get her job back and then ended up his trophy wife. So does Megan want a copy-writing job, or a rich husband? Either way, I didn’t buy it as an innocent crush at all. She wants something, and she’s just finished the first step of getting it. ---
**Author:** ![h.sapiens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e0b2c6/32.png) [@h.sapiens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/h.sapiens)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-11-chinese-wall-open-spoilers/555961/44 "2010-10-04T17:59:07Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > > [@alphaboi867](#): > > > > letting her give a presentation with lipstick on her teeth? Ordinarly that would just be a dick thing to do to her; in a crisis like this it’s an act of contempt to the whole agency. > > I don’t see any reason to believe that Stan “let” her do it. Harry was sitting right next to her and wasn’t able to clue her in until after the meeting was over. It looked to me like Stan was the only one who saw Peggy before they were all in the room with the client, and nobody saw her teeth until she started the presentation. They didn’t want to interrupt her. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-11-chinese-wall-open-spoilers/555961/45 "2010-10-04T18:14:21Z")
> [@AutumnLeaves](#): > > She wants something, and she’s just finished the first step of getting it. Well, she is Canadian, afterall. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-11-chinese-wall-open-spoilers/555961/46 "2010-10-04T18:15:28Z")
Hm. Somehow I missed that. > [@](#): > > It seemed very planned, and not only that, but she was basically using all Don’s seduction tricks and throwing them right back at him. And it worked. It reminded me a lot of Jane Sterling a few seasons ago, the way she played Roger to get her job back and then ended up his trophy wife. I don’t think we have any evidence (yet) that there’s anything sinister behind Megan’s wanting to have sex with Don. Sometimes people do deserve the benefit of the doubt. And it did seem reasonably spontaneous to me. Megan’s of the newest breed, even newer than Peggy. And she’s an artist. Maybe she does feel free to act on her sexual impulses without needing ulterior motives. The Summer of Love is fast approaching! Anyway, she already laid her cards on the table about wanting to get into creative. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-11-chinese-wall-open-spoilers/555961/47 "2010-10-04T18:51:00Z")
I thought Megan simply saw Peggy as a role model; that even in 1965 it’s possible to work your way out of the secretarial pool into a bigger role. And based on what she said about her education indicated to me that she could offer something useful to them. (Also, I thought Peggy’s pitch to the Playtex people was something that they wouldn’t have heard from a male ad exec.) ---
**Author:** ![AutumnLeaves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/45deac/32.png) [@AutumnLeaves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AutumnLeaves)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-11-chinese-wall-open-spoilers/555961/48 "2010-10-04T18:56:38Z")
> [@niblet\_head](#): > > > [@AutumnLeaves](#): > > > > She wants something, and she’s just finished the first step of getting it. > > Well, she is Canadian, afterall. Psht, so am I. What you meant to say was, “Well, she is from Montreal, after all”. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-11-chinese-wall-open-spoilers/555961/49 "2010-10-04T19:02:08Z")
Meh. I’m American. Be glad I even know where Canadia is. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-11-chinese-wall-open-spoilers/555961/50 "2010-10-04T19:06:56Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] Pete’s daughter is roughly of my generation, and I don’t know any of my peers whose fathers – even if they had been at work during the birth – wouldn’t have hightailed to the hospital as soon as they heard. [/QUOTE] It’s actually getting interesting seeing something (for us GenXers) filmed about our parents’ generation. While Alabama cattle farm was a long way away from Madison Avenue a lot of the mores and norms are still the same: the cigarettes, the automatic assumption women weren’t to be taken as seriously as men, the gradual destigmatization of divorce, etc.. My father actually was having breakfast and a beer on Madison Avenue when I was born, but this was at ‘The Dutch House’ (imagine a Waffle House that serves beer) on Madison Avenue in Montgomery, AL. Dutch House was one of the few places that served alcohol in the morning, and though I was his third child but all expectant fathers are nervous I suppose, and this was the generation when fathers were rarely if ever in the delivery room so there wasn’t much else to do. Also I was expected later in the day but came early; he got a call to come back to the hospital, and he wasn’t the only father in the place because he’d gone there with another. I can’t even imagine my father or any of his friends from his generation being present at the labor or cutting the umbilical cord, nor can I imagine my mother or any of her friends of the same generation willingly being awake and aware for labor. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-11-chinese-wall-open-spoilers/555961/51 "2010-10-04T19:11:24Z")
I know that in New England there was a huge prejudice against French Canadians at that time, almost like the prejudice against Mexicans today. Meghan is clearly not from a migrant worker class- impossible to know if her native language is French or English- but I wonder if they were still looked down on. If I remember my Canadian physiology correctly the Quebecois have no specific mating season and can breed at any time, though Ontario natives only _have_ to mate ever seven years, but when they do they become violent if they can’t get back to Canada for it. IIRC William Shatner actually used this as the basis for the Vulcan pon farr rituals even though Spock was the Vulcan and Shatner himself is Quebecois. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-11-chinese-wall-open-spoilers/555961/52 "2010-10-04T19:43:21Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > I know that in New England there was a huge prejudice against French Canadians at that time, almost like the prejudice against Mexicans today. Meghan is clearly not from a migrant worker class- impossible to know if her native language is French or English- but I wonder if they were still looked down on. > > If I remember my Canadian physiology correctly the Quebecois have no specific mating season and can breed at any time, though Ontario natives only _have_ to mate ever seven years, but when they do they become violent if they can’t get back to Canada for it. IIRC William Shatner actually used this as the basis for the Vulcan pon farr rituals even though Spock was the Vulcan and Shatner himself is Quebecois. Don’t the beaver-like teeth help in identification? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-11-chinese-wall-open-spoilers/555961/53 "2010-10-04T21:03:01Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > > [@Sampiro](#): > > > > I know that in New England there was a huge prejudice against French Canadians at that time, almost like the prejudice against Mexicans today. Meghan is clearly not from a migrant worker class- impossible to know if her native language is French or English- but I wonder if they were still looked down on. > > > > If I remember my Canadian physiology correctly the Quebecois have no specific mating season and can breed at any time, though Ontario natives only _have_ to mate ever seven years, but when they do they become violent if they can’t get back to Canada for it. IIRC William Shatner actually used this as the basis for the Vulcan pon farr rituals even though Spock was the Vulcan and Shatner himself is Quebecois. > > Don’t the beaver-like teeth help in identification? They’re used for gnawing through the cord at the time of parturition. Not terribly relevant in this particular case as I don’t think Canadians and Americans could successfully mate in 1965, though judging from his success with women Don probably has his own set of beaver mouth appendages. Did Don think he and Faye were broken up when he shagged Meghan Swan-neck or do you think he just didn’t particularly care? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-11-chinese-wall-open-spoilers/555961/54 "2010-10-04T21:11:37Z")
Not that Don deserves the benefit of the doubt but I think he thought it was over with Faye. I certainly thought it was over with Faye, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![lindsaybluth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90db22/32.png) [@lindsaybluth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsaybluth)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-11-chinese-wall-open-spoilers/555961/55 "2010-10-04T21:13:52Z")
I think he thought they were broken up, **Sampiro**. He genuinely seemed surprised that Faye showed up again. He also seemed clear he didn’t want to sleep with both women in the same night, a practice the Old Don made common. Megan was annoying. I thought she was being honest about learning. Don did try - twice - to push her away. The man thought he was just dumped, what did he have to lose? Either she was trying to sleep with her boss because Peggy did it or she’s genuinely stupidly fallen for him. Moron. Hopefully this will not continue to happen. Did anyone else love Abe? I just think he’s so adorable, and handsome. But I like me some curly haired Jewish boys, I may be biased. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-11-chinese-wall-open-spoilers/555961/56 "2010-10-04T21:18:23Z")
[QUOTE=lindsaybluth] Did anyone else love Abe? I just think he’s so adorable, and handsome. But I like me some curly haired Jewish boys, I may be biased. [/QUOTE] Is Abe the name of Peggy’s boyfriend? If so, he was indeed a cutey. Is Peggy sleeping with her boss a reference to Duck? Still no definite answer on whether Joan had the abortion. I think she’s still pregnant. Would Don, Roger, and Burt still be rich if the company tanked or is their personal wealthy tied in to the company? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-11-chinese-wall-open-spoilers/555961/57 "2010-10-04T21:21:52Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Is Peggy sleeping with her boss a reference to Duck? No. The gossip around the office is that Peggy had an affair with Don at some point, possibly prior to her “mysterious disappearance.” ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-11-chinese-wall-open-spoilers/555961/58 "2010-10-04T21:25:04Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > > [@Sampiro](#): > > > > Is Peggy sleeping with her boss a reference to Duck? > > No. The gossip around the office is that Peggy had an affair with Don at some point, possibly prior to her “mysterious disappearance.” Ah, somehow I missed that. I remember she said that her mother assumed Don was the baby daddy. Apparently Betty and the kids are going to be more center stage next week. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-11-chinese-wall-open-spoilers/555961/59 "2010-10-04T21:31:20Z")
I’ve been thinking about the financial numbers at SCDP. In this episode, they mentioned that their remaining clients bill around $20 million. So that gives us some idea of how much they lost when they turned down the $4 million North American Aviation account (twenty percent, in other words, of the non-Lucky Strike business). And as I understand the ad agency business, the $20 million means that SCDP places that much in advertisements on behalf of its clients, and gets to keep 15% of the ad sales as their commission. So $3 million is what they have available to pay the rent, salaries and other expenses. I thought in one of the earlier seasons we learned that one of the junior client execs received an annual salary of about $5,000. So $3 million sounds like a lot. But the problem is that they’ve built the agency around twice that (given that Lucky Strike billed probably $20-30 million by itself). ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-11-chinese-wall-open-spoilers/555961/60 "2010-10-04T21:32:00Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > …Ah, somehow I missed that. I remember she said that her mother assumed Don was the baby daddy… Yep, though to be fair I don’t blame Mrs Olsen for thinking that. What else was she supposed to think (in 1960) when Don, her boss, actually shows up and visits her in the maternity ward? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-11-chinese-wall-open-spoilers/555961.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-11-chinese-wall-open-spoilers/555961.md?page=4)