# Mad-Men: 4.13 "Tomorrowland", SEASON FINALE, (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 17, 2010, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-13-tomorrowland-season-finale-open-spoilers/557495 "2010-10-17T23:43:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-13-tomorrowland-season-finale-open-spoilers/557495/81 "2010-10-18T17:58:17Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > I don’t think you disapprove of it at all, of course. Neither do I, really. But it makes her a bit of a fuckwit. You can’t be a fuckwit when doing something you are entitled to do, in my view. Roger’s a fuckwit, among many reasons, because of the way he handled the Lucky Strike thing, for instance. He was not giving his partners information they needed: highly fuckwitted. Faye sought to deliberately inflict emotional pain on Don in their last phone conversation. But he’d earned it, and every word she said was true. Not fuckwitted at all. I’d put the baby remark from Peggy in the latter category. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-13-tomorrowland-season-finale-open-spoilers/557495/82 "2010-10-18T17:58:45Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Baby aside, Peggy jumped into bed with Pete after a line like “Hey, I’m getting married tomorrow” and then spent the rest of the season acting superior to everyone else’s dalliances. I spent Season One hating Peggy and it took until now for me to warm up to her based on S1. I just watched the first episode a couple of days ago, and it’s easier to see in hindsight how confused Peggy must have been at the time. Not over Pete–I think she was genuinely attracted to him. But from the second she walked into Sterling Cooper, she was absolutely bombarded with mixed messages about her role as Don’s secretary, the importance of her sexuality, all kinds of innuendos about the previous girl, and a lot of other things she probably had no context for. She was adrift, making all kinds of missteps and mistakes (including trying to make a move on Don and allowing Pete access to that file) that it probably seemed like nobody in the office would make. I think that would come across as her “acting superior” was really just her trying to figure out the appropriate behavior in this place and trying to find some solid ground to stand on. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-13-tomorrowland-season-finale-open-spoilers/557495/83 "2010-10-18T18:02:00Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > I disagree 100% with this. It didn’t show that Ken is less committed to SCDP, it shows that Ken has priorities that _they_ can’t even begin to understand. To the four of them, the agency is their life and _any_ personal relationship is worth exploiting if it nets a gain in the end. Ken is the only one who has any sort of perspective on the world–namely that the woman he loves is his actual _life_ and that he’s going to have to have a long relationship with his father-in-law. He doesn’t want to have a lifetime of awkward holidays and family discussions b/c he shit where he eats, and now bad business is complicating everything. That’s not a sign of being less committed, that’s a sign of being _sane_. He’s the only well-adjusted, normal person on the show. It’s probably not a coincidence that he’s the happiest. > > I doubt he’s considering bolting. He’s getting married soon. Going through another big change isn’t a great plan, and he seemed to be genuinely excited to land that account with Peggy. They worked so well together, it was such a contrast to the 1st season where they were at odds and uncomfortable with each other. Honestly, that little subplot made me ridiculously happy because I’ve always liked Ken, and I wanted him to be redeemed for his earlier behavior. Yes, Ken not being willing to use his personal life for SCDP _is_ a sign that he is less committed to the company. He is not willing to go to the extent that, for example, Pete is. Hence Pete’s caustic remark in the meeting when Ken wouldn’t go with their plan. May be better-adjusted of him, but less committed nonetheless. And it’s a worse plan for him planning on getting married, to stay with a sinking ship. He probably was very happy to get that new business, indeed, as it made the necessity of his bolting less pressing. Up until that point – _especially_ as he left the meeting with Don, Pete, and Roger – he was definitely not a happy camper. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-13-tomorrowland-season-finale-open-spoilers/557495/84 "2010-10-18T18:02:15Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > That was interesting. The model mentioned that Topaz fired the agency and her, and Harry was so busy leering at her that he didn’t realize the significance of this. But Peggy did, and so she did some digging and figured out that they needed a new ad agency. Am I alone in thinking that Peggy’s friend brought the comely girl in partly with that in mind? Not that she wasn’t trying to help the model as well. But she strikes me as devious (in a good way) and she might have seen a way to help two friends out at once. Or maybe get two different hot chicks feeling grateful to her at once. At any rate it was efficient. I want an episode entirely about her. [Robert from _Company_] "If only I could rmemeber her name. [/robert from _company_] ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-13-tomorrowland-season-finale-open-spoilers/557495/85 "2010-10-18T18:04:32Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Yes, Ken not being willing to use his personal life for SCDP _is_ a sign that he is less committed to the company. He is not willing to go to the extent that, for example, Pete is. Hence Pete’s caustic remark in the meeting when Ken wouldn’t go with their plan. > > May be better-adjusted of him, but less committed nonetheless. The level of commitment Don, Roger, & Pete were attempting to bully him into was not reasonable. The thing is that Ken is the only one of them who understands that – and maybe the only one who is capable of understanding it. Unlike Roger & Don, he is is not an asshole; unlike Pete, he is not a borderline/reforming asshole either. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-13-tomorrowland-season-finale-open-spoilers/557495/86 "2010-10-18T18:11:44Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Yes, Ken not being willing to use his personal life for SCDP _is_ a sign that he is less committed to the company. He is not willing to go to the extent that, for example, Pete is. Hence Pete’s caustic remark in the meeting when Ken wouldn’t go with their plan. > > May be better-adjusted of him, but less committed nonetheless. What you say might be literally true, but the way you say it creates a misleading impression. Ken isn’t married to the company; he’s married to his wife (-to-be). > [@](#): > > And it’s a worse plan for him planning on getting married, to stay with a sinking ship. As opposed to what? Ken doesn’t have any fantastic options here. If he tries to jump firms again, he’s going to start losing his clients – it costs them money and time to change firms and they’re going to be pissed off if Ken tries to make them do it twice _within a year_ for completely selfish reason. He’d chase them all to B.B.D.O. > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > You can’t be a fuckwit when doing something you are entitled to do, in my view. > > Roger’s a fuckwit, among many reasons, because of the way he handled the Lucky Strike thing, for instance. He was not giving his partners information they needed: highly fuckwitted. > > Faye sought to deliberately inflict emotional pain on Don in their last phone conversation. But he’d earned it, and every word she said was true. Not fuckwitted at all. > > I’d put the baby remark from Peggy in the latter category. Another self-contradiction. Peggy _was_ entitled to tell Pete about what happened, so by your definition, that’s out. Second, she did _not_ do it to deliberately inflict emotional pain on Pete. Pete was chasing after her again and romanticizing her. He needed to be disabused of his illusions that Peggy was some kind of angel, that their affair was something pure, and that their actions didn’t have consequences. Peggy had kept it from him for that long, but finally spilled the beans, because it was time for him to know and he _needed_ to know. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-13-tomorrowland-season-finale-open-spoilers/557495/87 "2010-10-18T18:14:36Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Another self-contradiction. Peggy _was_ entitled to tell Pete about what happened, so by your definition, that’s out. Do you know what “latter” means? I am arguing that Peggy is not a fuckwit. > [@](#): > > Second, she did _not_ do it to deliberately inflict emotional pain on Pete. Pete was chasing after her again and romanticizing her. He needed to be disabused of his illusions that Peggy was some kind of angel, that their affair was something pure, and that their actions didn’t have consequences. Peggy had kept it from him for that long, but finally spilled the beans, because it was time for him to know and he _needed_ to know. I think there was some desire to verbally punch him in the kidneys. I approve of that, but then I am a fuckwit. Wait… ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-13-tomorrowland-season-finale-open-spoilers/557495/88 "2010-10-18T18:18:57Z")
Sorry, I just partially misread your post. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-13-tomorrowland-season-finale-open-spoilers/557495/89 "2010-10-18T18:26:27Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Sorry, I just partially misread your post. S’alright. I was probably snippier than I should have been, on account of – well, we’ve already covered that. ---
**Author:** ![eenerms](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cdc98d/32.png) [@eenerms](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eenerms)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-13-tomorrowland-season-finale-open-spoilers/557495/90 "2010-10-18T18:29:26Z")
Didn’t like it didn’t hate it. A problem I had was the phone call from Vietnam to the states. My father was in the Vietnam war (two tours) in the early '70s. He called the states twice that I remember, and it was on radio phones when you had to say: ‘over’ and it wasn’t for idle chit chat. Granted he wasn’t a officer. I think (and I’ve said before) Betty is still in love with Don. Why else would she wait for him in the kitchen and refresh her makeup? She knew he was coming over. ---
**Author:** ![AutumnLeaves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/45deac/32.png) [@AutumnLeaves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AutumnLeaves)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-13-tomorrowland-season-finale-open-spoilers/557495/91 "2010-10-18T18:32:10Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > And . . . yay! I’ve been waiting for a Carla-Betty bitchfight for five years. That was awesome. I’m glad Carla finally stood up to her. Carla didn’t really stand up to her, though. She got mildly defensive about her own children, as she should, but that was it. And Betty won, firing Carla and refusing to write a referral. And it was a classic Mad Men moment when both characters are in the wrong. I mean, Betty was much, much more in the wrong. And if Carla had allowed Sally to, say, cross the street to chat with Glenn when they were out and about, sure that would have been fine. But allowing this boy that she knows Betty doesn’t like to visit with Sally, just the two of them, in Sally’s room? I’m sure Betty would have lost it to find out any neighbourhood boy was alone with Sally in her room. I’m sure a lot of parents would be angry in that situation. It was strange to see Carla making such a bad judgment call, one she must have known would have serious consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-13-tomorrowland-season-finale-open-spoilers/557495/92 "2010-10-18T18:34:09Z")
> [@eenerms](#): > > Didn’t like it didn’t hate it. > > A problem I had was the phone call from Vietnam to the states. My father was in the Vietnam war (two tours) in the early '70s. He called the states twice that I remember, and it was on radio phones when you had to say: ‘over’ and it wasn’t for idle chit chat. Granted he wasn’t a officer. > > I think (and I’ve said before) Betty is still in love with Don. Why else would she wait for him in the kitchen and refresh her makeup? She knew he was coming over. Wait, was Greg calling from Vietnam? I thought he was still in Texas. And I agree that Betty’s still in love with Don. Also, she’s souring on Henry. ---
**Author:** ![h.sapiens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e0b2c6/32.png) [@h.sapiens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/h.sapiens)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-13-tomorrowland-season-finale-open-spoilers/557495/93 "2010-10-18T18:35:54Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Am I alone in thinking that Peggy’s friend brought the comely girl in partly with that in mind? Not that she wasn’t trying to help the model as well. But she strikes me as devious (in a good way) and she might have seen a way to help two friends out at once. Or maybe get two different hot chicks feeling grateful to her at once. > > At any rate it was efficient. I want an episode entirely about her. > > [Robert from _Company_] > "If only I could rmemeber her name. > [/robert from _company_] Joyce. And her friend was Carolyn Jones, like Morticia. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-13-tomorrowland-season-finale-open-spoilers/557495/94 "2010-10-18T18:39:09Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Wait, was Greg calling from Vietnam? I thought he was still in Texas. That was my assumption. It was daylight for both characters. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-13-tomorrowland-season-finale-open-spoilers/557495/95 "2010-10-18T18:39:09Z")
> [@corkboard](#): > > What was it Pete said, “You don’t congratulate the woman, you congratulate the man and you tell the woman ‘Best Wishes’”, or something? Never heard this before, of course, I wasn’t raised with a silver spoon in my mouth. This has been standard in every etiquette book published in the 20th century. Every woman on the show would know it in her bones. Men were there only to be corrected for not knowing it. I’ve mentioned the problem of ages on the show before, but this episode really pushed them into our faces. Is it a noticeable difference for a man of 39 to marry a woman of 25? In our society, yes. What about a man of 33 and a women of 25? Not so much. Jon Hamm is 39 and looks it. But his character, Don Draper, is only 33. (He went to Korea when he was 19. He wasn’t there right in the beginning, so he probably went in 1951.) Don’s a Wunderkind who got famous in the business when he was the age Peggy is now. Don and Joan are the same age and so are Betty and Pete (or a year or so apart). Peggy and Meghan are the same age (or a year or so apart). But they’re not played that way. Pete is 31, which makes him just younger than Don. Betty and Joan don’t look remotely the same age. Meghan is just getting started at the age that Peggy is a veteran and Don was a star. It’s never been clear how much of this is deliberate and how much is an accident, but it all coalesces around this marriage. Where Weiner takes Meghan is the key for next year. I haven’t seen this mentioned before, but Wikipedia says that Don’s middle name is Francis. Just like Henry’s last name. Why would Weiner have done this? The Mrs. Truxton that Don was waiting for at the end makes more sense if you watch Rubicon, where one of the main characters is Truxton Spangler. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-13-tomorrowland-season-finale-open-spoilers/557495/96 "2010-10-18T18:39:19Z")
> [@h.sapiens](#): > > Carolyn Jones. Like Morticia. > > Was she supposed to be Joyce’s girlfriend? I couldn’t figure it out. I dunno. Joyce seems to be a good friend in general; if Peggy had lost her job last week, she’d have been trying to help Peggy get work though they are not sleeping together. On the other hand, if Joyce and Carolyn were involved, then it’s a good way to further point out that Harry is a nitwit. Not that that needs reinforcing, but it’s nice to see the evidence. not being hidden. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-13-tomorrowland-season-finale-open-spoilers/557495/97 "2010-10-18T18:43:27Z")
> [@eenerms](#): > > A problem I had was the phone call from Vietnam to the states. My father was in the Vietnam war (two tours) in the early '70s. He called the states twice that I remember, and it was on radio phones when you had to say: ‘over’ and it wasn’t for idle chit chat. Granted he wasn’t a officer. I had to do that too. Once. For ten minutes. 😃 Is he even in Vietnam yet? He only left for training in the summer of 1965 - which I assume it still is. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-13-tomorrowland-season-finale-open-spoilers/557495/98 "2010-10-18T18:47:08Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > It’s never been clear how much of this is deliberate and how much is an accident It’s got to be accidental. These kinds of problems tend to crop up in fiction, but usually it’s not so noticeable, because timelines aren’t so central to the story. > [@](#): > > I haven’t seen this mentioned before, but Wikipedia says that Don’s middle name is Francis. Just like Henry’s last name. Why would Weiner have done this? Why can’t it just be a coincidence? It’s not that improbable. And no one really knows Don’s middle name anyway. Are you suggesting that this is a hint that Henry Francis is related to the real Don Draper? “Francis” really is kind of generic name, not much there to hang a story on. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-13-tomorrowland-season-finale-open-spoilers/557495/99 "2010-10-18T18:52:00Z")
My son’s middle name is Francis. Scary. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-13-tomorrowland-season-finale-open-spoilers/557495/100 "2010-10-18T19:15:15Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > I had to do that too. Once. For ten minutes. 😃 > > Is he even in Vietnam yet? He only left for training in the summer of 1965 - which I assume it still is. he said something like it was only 9AM and it was already 90 degrees or something which made me think they were in Vietnam. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-13-tomorrowland-season-finale-open-spoilers/557495.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-4-13-tomorrowland-season-finale-open-spoilers/557495.md?page=6)