# Mad-Men: 5.01 "A Little Kiss" (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 25, 2012, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793 "2012-03-25T22:20:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/61 "2012-03-26T17:25:17Z")
> [@Christopher\_Robin\_Davies](#): > > Another question or actually criticism. Pete is a junior partner; Roger is a senior partner; Harry is just an employee though a department head. Why did Harry have a better office in the first place? For that matter, why would Roger have to convince Harry to switch offices with Pete, much less bribe him? It was clear in the Harry-Roger scene that Roger has the power to fire Harry at will. Seemed silly, though the scene was still funny. My guess is that, when they first moved out of the hotel room and into the new office, Harry got a nicer office since he was presumably meeting with TV executives and was the head of his department. Now that Pete’s moving up and carrying more of the company (no more Lucky Strikes), he wants a larger office. Even more clearly, he wants Roger’s office because he sees Roger as dead weight to the company and is tired of busting his ass while Roger hovers about like an alcoholic vulture, trying to steal credit for Pete’s hustle. Pete is happy with Harry’s office for now since it’s (A) a nicer office, (B) reflects his growing position and (C) Pete knows Roger had to give something up for Harry to trade and it shows that Roger is afraid of Pete to have done so. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/62 "2012-03-26T17:27:27Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > What’s amazing is how people seem to l"like" Don and Roger and “dislike” Pete, when in reality Pete, though far from perfect, seems to be the one who understands the world around them is changing and that the old school Madison Avenue ways are not going to work. I’ve been in Pete’s corner since Season 1. He’s absolutely not a “good” person and has done plenty I wouldn’t dream of justifying, but I’ve felt like I understand him as well, if not better, than the two man Draper/Sterling rat pack. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/63 "2012-03-26T17:35:24Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > He also seems to be the one at the moment with the most normal home life. > > Yet we gravitate toward Don and Roger because cool drinking and dress snappy and be assured etc. But they are womanizers, with limited social awareness and represent an old school way of thinking. In the womanizing department, at least, Pete isn’t all that different from Don and Roger. He’s just not as successful. Remember, he slept with Peggy on the night of his bachelor party and then again in the office after he was married. He slept with a girl who came in for an audition (with her mother watching TV behind a curtain!). He coerced the neighbor’s nanny into sleeping with him. He’s also been known to make lascivious comments in the office and treat female co-workers in a demeaning manner, to the point that Don commented on it in the pilot episode. There are some ways in which Pete is a little more perceptive about changes in society, but he’s not all that different from Don and Roger. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/64 "2012-03-26T17:43:22Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > In the womanizing department, at least, Pete isn’t all that different from Don and Roger. He’s just not as successful. Remember, he slept with Peggy on the night of his bachelor party and then again in the office after he was married. He slept with a girl who came in for an audition (with her mother watching TV behind a curtain!). He coerced the neighbor’s nanny into sleeping with him. He’s also been known to make lascivious comments in the office and treat female co-workers in a demeaning manner, to the point that Don commented on it in the pilot episode. > > There are some ways in which Pete is a little more perceptive about changes in society, but he’s not all that different from Don and Roger. While Pete is no saint, his womanizing has clearly come to a stop, especially after the baby. The last one came with the au pair came in season 3 and he clearly felt ashamed. I think the differences between Pete and the others is actually quite striking, he seems far more responsible and professional. Yes he is ambitious, but at least that ambition is bringing in work. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/65 "2012-03-26T18:05:11Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > While Pete is no saint, his womanizing has clearly come to a stop, especially after the baby. “Clearly”? Really? Just because they aren’t showing us doesn’t mean it’s clear. It might be implied, but that’s different from being clear. And we don’t know what might trigger backsliding in Pete’s case. > [@](#): > > The last one came with the au pair came in season 3 and he clearly felt ashamed. I think it’s pretty clear that Don feels shitty about himself no matter what he does. So, I’m not seeing “striking” differences other than Pete is not as good at pulling as Don and Roger are. And his conscience tends to ride rollercoasters. > [@](#): > > he seems far more responsible and professional. Yes he is ambitious, but at least that ambition is bringing in work. He is inexhaustible when it comes to expending effort to bring in clients. I won’t agree that his behavior is generally “more professional” than the others in the office. Pete is prone to petty jealousy, resentment, backbiting, throwing hissy fits, and unfairly mistreating the staff, which might not make him worse than anyone else, but it’s not clearly more professional. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/66 "2012-03-26T18:30:46Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > (In the partner’s room. Ken is a grown-up but he’s so minor a character I had to look up his name because I forgot it since last night.) Ken is the guy who brought the riding lawnmower to Sterling-Cooper, thereby leading to the most tragic workplace accident of all. Along with his other activities with his pals, the boys, makes me think “grown-up” isn’t the word to describe him. > [@Acsenray](#): > > I think it’s pretty clear that Don feels shitty about himself no matter what he does. So, I’m not seeing “striking” differences other than Pete is not as good at pulling as Don and Roger are. And his conscience tends to ride rollercoasters. I think the point is that, despite his differences with them, Pete is turning into a copy of Don, who is in turn a copy of Roger. They’re all examples at different points on the same timeline. First Roger dumped his wife for a second marriage to a hot young secretary, then Don did it. And Pete’s suburban home has the same cookie-cutter sameness to Don + Betty’s old home. Pete showing up late to eat alone while the kids and wife have gone to bed is exactly what Don used to do. And that dissatisfaction that Pete’s feeling? Pretty much what Don had boiling under the surface all the time: top of his game, still feeling empty. I expect Pete to start having serial affairs this season, really. I’ve been re-watching season 1, and had to laugh at the episode where Pete gets in trouble with Don for pitching an idea to a client. Pete points out that not only does he have some good ideas (and he does), but that no one had ever told him he was a “people person” until he came to Sterling-Cooper… and he really, really _isn’t_. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/67 "2012-03-26T19:15:29Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#): > > Any takers on if Dick Whitman was revealed to Megan last season? Or if it happened while on hiatus and she referred to it this season to let us know they’d talked about it? Matthew Weiner was on NPR’s _Fresh Air_ today, and he said it happened off-camera during the hiatus. Also, the story date is June of 1966, eight months after the final episode of season four. ---
**Author:** ![Christopher\_Robin\_Davies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8dc957/32.png) [@Christopher\_Robin\_Davies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Christopher_Robin_Davies)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/68 "2012-03-26T19:21:27Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > They guy’s in the Mafia and already has a wife. > > Yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of sex game than spousal rape too. Where are you getting that the guy with the wallet was in the Mafia? Did I miss something in the conversation with Dolores? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/69 "2012-03-26T19:30:30Z")
> [@](#): > > I think the point is that, despite his differences with them, Pete is turning into a copy of Don, who is in turn a copy of Roger. They’re all examples at different points on the same timeline. First Roger dumped his wife for a second marriage to a hot young secretary, then Don did it. And Pete’s suburban home has the same cookie-cutter sameness to Don + Betty’s old home. Pete showing up late to eat alone while the kids and wife have gone to bed is exactly what Don used to do. Don did not dump his wife. He gave her many reasons to leave, but she didn’t do so until she found a new guy. Then she dumped him. However, the three guys _are_, in some ways, showing different stages in The Life Cycle of The Mad Man. Pete & Trudy had developed a pretty good relationship after a rocky start; her long period of childlessness let them get to know each other. Their baby is new; I hope they can get things back on track. I think that Betty got pregnant very early in her marriage with Don; they might have benefited by more time without children–young, in love, in the City. Megan gets along fine with Don’s kids but I doubt she is in a hurry to become a Full Time Mommy. The Pill is now widespread; unlike Young Peggy, I’m pretty sure that Megan knows how to use it! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/70 "2012-03-26T19:48:49Z")
> [@peedin](#): > > Is Lane’s wife Rebecca a new wife? I thought his wife left him last season and returned to England. She moved back to England but she never “left” him. Pryce’s father knocked him to the ground with his cane and ordered him to patch things up “either here or there.” ---
**Author:** ![lindsaybluth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90db22/32.png) [@lindsaybluth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsaybluth)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/71 "2012-03-26T19:51:10Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Matthew Weiner was on NPR’s _Fresh Air_ today, and he said it happened off-camera during the hiatus. Also, the story date is June of 1966, eight months after the final episode of season four. Ah ha. Now that is very interesting. I’m dying to know why he told her the truth and how he plans on holding this relationship together. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/72 "2012-03-26T19:57:06Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Oh, I agree completely. > > How is Joannie going to explain the way-too-young, white-haired, cocktail-swilling baby to her husband? And are we going to be treated to more extreme closeups of _baby balls?_ Shouldn’t be hard. Her husband may be a surgeon but he can’t do basic math (since the baby was conceived several weeks after he left and carried to full term), so critical thinking isn’t really his strong suit. It occurs that Joan’s baby would be just over 6 months older than I am. I don’t know why I find that cool, but I do. I wonder if Burt will go see the movie _How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying_ later this season. (It was released in '67, and it’s conceivable the current season could reach that long.) It was leaked (though it might be false) that the last episode(s) of the series will be set in modern day with an 80-something Don Draper. I hope that we get to see some of the other updates and find out if Joan ever becomes an exec, or if Peggy and Pete are ever tracked down by their child, etc.. I won’t spoiler because it’s never been said or even rumored, but it’s looking more like Roger might be the guy who jumps from the window (though I don’t think they’re on a high floor at the moment). ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/73 "2012-03-26T20:08:47Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > I won’t spoiler because it’s never been said or even rumored, but it’s looking more like Roger might be the guy who jumps from the window (though I don’t think they’re on a high floor at the moment). And their windows don’t open. Which, BTW, was part of their “Equal Opportunity Employer” ad’s copy. Foreshadowing? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/74 "2012-03-26T20:10:29Z")
I think the falling guy is metaphor, not foreshadowing. But even if it were, it couldn’t be anyone but Don. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/75 "2012-03-26T20:24:02Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > They are partners because they put their capital into the business. It’s not a question of “affording” them. If the business doesn’t profit, they don’t get a share of the profits either, but that doesn’t change their ownership status. Except that I can’t believe that they aren’t both drawing down very good salaries, far more than the company can afford. Harry got a bribe of $1100 and that was supposed to be a month’s take home. That’s totally out of whack for a department head unless he was told that they would make it up to him later. Of course, it’s silly that the guy with his name on the door doesn’t have an office at all. And they could hire a whole new creative team and move them into Roger’s office without having to pay more rent or salary. Roger has to go. He’s Duck redux. > [@Lightray](#): > > I think the point is that, despite his differences with them, Pete is turning into a copy of Don, who is in turn a copy of Roger. They’re all examples at different points on the same timeline. First Roger dumped his wife for a second marriage to a hot young secretary, then Don did it. And Pete’s suburban home has the same cookie-cutter sameness to Don + Betty’s old home. Pete showing up late to eat alone while the kids and wife have gone to bed is exactly what Don used to do. Nice observation. Weiner has given an interview saying that the point of the show is that nobody changes. I firmly and loudly state that you should never believe anything writers say about their work and here’s conclusive proof. Some people on the show are obviously changing. And the correlation between amount of change and age is almost a perfect -1. > [@Sampiro](#): > > It was leaked (though it might be false) that the last episode(s) of the series will be set in modern day with an 80-something Don Draper. I thought that’s just a rumor that somebody started, but not anybody connected to the show. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/76 "2012-03-26T20:31:21Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Harry got a bribe of $1100 and that was supposed to be a month’s take home. That’s totally out of whack for a department head unless he was told that they would make it up to him later. I still don’t have a handle on the money thing. In the first season Pete was making $80 a week (or was it $40?). And when Harry went nuts over Ken’s paycheck, wasn’t it like $250 or something like that? When Don was being courted by another firm, he had not yet cracked $40,000 a year. And now $1,110 monthly would be a joke? ---
**Author:** ![Christopher\_Robin\_Davies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8dc957/32.png) [@Christopher\_Robin\_Davies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Christopher_Robin_Davies)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/77 "2012-03-26T20:40:11Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Except that I can’t believe that they aren’t both drawing down very good salaries, far more than the company can afford. Harry got a bribe of $1100 and that was supposed to be a month’s take home. That’s totally out of whack for a department head unless he was told that they would make it up to him later. Of course, it’s silly that the guy with his name on the door doesn’t have an office at all. And they could hire a whole new creative team and move them into Roger’s office without having to pay more rent or salary. Roger has to go. He’s Duck redux. > > Nice observation. > > Weiner has given an interview saying that the point of the show is that nobody changes. I firmly and loudly state that you should never believe anything writers say about their work and here’s conclusive proof. Some people on the show are obviously changing. And the correlation between amount of change and age is almost a perfect -1. > I thought that’s just a rumor that somebody started, but not anybody connected to the show. According to the inflation calculator, $1100 in 1966 dollars is equivalent to about $7300 today. Here is my cite: [http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi](http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi) ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/78 "2012-03-26T20:45:46Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I still don’t have a handle on the money thing. In the first season Pete was making $80 a week (or was it $40?). And when Harry went nuts over Ken’s paycheck, wasn’t it like $250 or something like that? When Don was being courted by another firm, he had not yet cracked $40,000 a year. And now $1,110 monthly would be a joke? It’s now 1966 and I think that $40,000 offer was several years ago their time. Salaries zoomed in the 1960s in advertising. Don had half a million to buy in as a partner and my memory is that he had managed to save that much from his salary. He’s certainly making six figures now. I don’t have a good feel for what $1100 a month would translate to before taxes in 1966, but it can’t be more than $20,000. For a department head. That seems out of whack, which is not the same thing as a joke. ---
**Author:** ![corkboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@corkboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/corkboard)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/79 "2012-03-26T20:58:27Z")
I thought it was interesting that it was Roger who persuaded (coerced? bribed.) Harry into switching offices for Pete’s benefit. When they were crammed on the couch in Pete’s office, Roger basically challenged Pete to a fight after Pete claimed he’s the only one bringing in business; Don sort of shrugged & left, Lane bowed out, and Burt muttered “it’ll work itself out”. Yet Roger, who is more or less Pete’s sworn intra-agency enemy and who almost went to blows with him last season, made it happen. If he hadn’t, I’m sure none of the other three would have done anything about it. I wouldn’t be surprised if Pete lobbies next season to have his name added to the firm. If he continues to be the chief rainmaker there, they’d pretty much have to. I also loved Roger’s little dance/mockery of Zooba Zoo. He’s a pretty funny guy. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/80 "2012-03-26T21:04:11Z")
I don’t see Pete as an early version of Don at all. He really does not like drinking, he is not a fan of office hijinks, he does not think of the workplace as a playground. Like I said, he isn’t a saint, by any stretch, he does treat the women in the office like crap, but I see him very different from Don. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793.md?page=5)