# Mad-Men: 5.01 "A Little Kiss" (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 25, 2012, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793 "2012-03-25T22:20:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/101 "2012-03-27T01:04:16Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > …I doubt Draper saves much of his income. He’s always managed to land on his feet. The “disappearing cash” he kept in his home desk probably accounted for most of his savings. One of Betty’s many complaints about Don was that he didn’t have a clue how to manage money. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/102 "2012-03-27T01:10:33Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > My take was that Roger wanted to avoid the risk of losing to Pete if things went to the wall. He’s not entirely blind to his own weaknesses. I saw it not so much as Roger’s being afraid he might lose his office, and more that he just wanted to end the argument – first because it’s generally a buzzkill which Roger is temperamentally ill-suited to handle, and, more importantly, because as long as it’s an issue it highlights his growing obsolescence/irrelevancy within the agency. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/103 "2012-03-27T01:20:02Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > I saw it not so much as Roger’s being afraid he might lose his office, and more that he just wanted to end the argument Notice I said that Roger didn’t want to take the risk of “losing to Pete,” not “lose his office.” The longer the dispute goes on, the more attention is paid to Roger and Pete’s relative contributions. > [@](#): > > – first because it’s generally a buzzkill which Roger is temperamentally ill-suited to handle, and, more importantly, because as long as it’s an issue it highlights his growing obsolescence/irrelevancy within the agency. This seems to be more or less consistent with what I said. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/104 "2012-03-27T01:21:40Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > One thing I’m surprised to learn is the relative difference (or rather, the lack of it) in the ages of Dick Whitman (aka Don Draper) and the real Don Draper. [This thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=630752http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb) discussed reasons why Whitman would have been born about six years later than Draper. But last night they revealed that the two are only six months apart. I wonder if that was an oversight? (ETA: What \*\*alphaboi \*\*said). My ears practically bugged out of my head when I heard that. The Korean War ended on July 27, 1953. If Dick Whitman turned 40 six months before June 1, 1966, he was born probably in December 1925. That makes him at most 17 when he enlisted and at most 17 when he met Don Draper and at most 17 when he took over the identity of an officer who would have had to be a college graduate (June 1 is just a birthdate, apparently, although the dialog implied that the real Draper had just turned 40) and fooled every person in the Armed Services who encountered him. Including the ones who gave him a Purple Heart. Wait, it gets worse. Much worse. After leaving Korea he takes a job as a car salesman, attends CCNY for a time [although people have always asked why a college graduate would do this], moves to a job at a fur store, creates advertising for them after being there awhile, meets Betty, cons Roger into a job, and then marries Betty. In May 1953. That’s the accepted date. It’s about the latest it could have occurred, given the other dates presented over the course of the first four seasons. It’s corroborated by Sally’s age, since she’s usually thought of as being born in 1954. This can’t be too far off since 12 is the real actress’s age. So Dick Whitman was 16 in Korea. Or maybe 15. And 17 when he marries Betty. That’s crazy. And entirely unnecessary. Unless the whole thing is a plant for a later event I can’t imagine, there’s absolutely no reason why Don Draper couldn’t be older. His new wife could still throw him a surprise birthday party even if the year wasn’t the round 4-0. I just don’t get it. > [@](#): > > When PPL bought SC at the end of season 2, Don cleared “around half a million dollars”, as Roger informed him when he returned from his three-week disppearance. IIUC, Draper used most or all of this money to chip in with the others and buy the firm back when PPL were going to sell SC again at the end of season 3. I doubt Draper saves much of his income. He’s always managed to land on his feet. The “disappearing cash” he kept in his home desk probably accounted for most of his savings. Right. I remember that now. He had a small stake in the firm, didn’t he? Not the size of the others, who must have received much more? But he moved into a cheap apartment when he separated from Betty, sank the buyout money into a new firm that is not generating any real profits, and can afford what’s obviously a swanky and large apartment this year? Where’s that money coming from? Megan’s salary as junior copywriter? For a show people pick apart obsessively and in which everything is therefore a clue, these are huge holes. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/105 "2012-03-27T01:39:02Z")
And here we go with the obsessive details. The water-bags on the OEO protesters actually happened. And on the [Thursday before Memorial Day weekend, 1966](http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FB0B12F83D55117B93CAAB178ED85F428685F9). > [@](#): > > More than 300 poor people and antipoverty workers picketed the Madison Avenue headquarters of the Office of Economic Opportunity yesterday, demanding more money for city programs, but they received only a pelting by water bombs apparently thrown by irate office workers. According to Slate, those office workers were at… yep, Young & Rubicam. My bet is, Weiner threw out any date he had planned and used this as his launching point. Or he could have had this tucked away for years, I suppose, but he really didn’t need to research this before the hiatus. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/106 "2012-03-27T01:41:40Z")
The exact timeline isn’t exactly crucial to the drama. It’s an inconsistency, but really only noticed by someone deliberately trying to piece the timeline together. This kind of drama is obviously not written for that degree of technical scrutiny. You’re just supposed to accept the facts as they come and ignore inconsistencies or retcons as they occur. TV drama isn’t written like a novel so that all the little details hold together from beginning to end. So, you can call these huge holes if you want, but it’s obviously not something that the writers really care about. You’ve been shown Dick Whitman serving in Korea and working at a car dealership and he’s obviously not a teen-ager in those scenes, so that’s pretty much that. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/107 "2012-03-27T02:44:36Z")
> [@SuperNelson](#): > > There’s no credit on IMDB for Joan’s mother; any chance that’s [Christine Estabrook](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0261452/), who played the realtor on last fall’s “American Horror Story?” Yes. Alan Sepinwall revealed that in his review. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/108 "2012-03-27T02:54:52Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Yes. Alan Sepinwall revealed that in his review. What? Nobody recognized her as Mary Todd Lincoln in [The Secret Diary of Desmond Pfeiffer](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0168373/)? As for my previous comments on Dick Whitman’s age: disregard them entirely. I must have been out on the balcony inhaling some tea when I did the math. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/109 "2012-03-27T03:23:26Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > …It was leaked (though it might be false) that the last episode(s) of the series will be set in modern day with an 80-something Don Draper. I hope that we get to see some of the other updates and find out if Joan ever becomes an exec, or if Peggy and Pete are ever tracked down by their child, etc… I don’t know about going all the way up to the present day, but I would be interested in seeing the different characters in the '70s. Maybe some kind of montage in the final moments of the series to the present, but then that would just look they were ripping off **Daria** or **Six Feet Under**. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/110 "2012-03-27T04:18:23Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The Korean War ended on July 27, 1953. If Dick Whitman turned 40 six months before June 1, 1966, he was born probably in December 1925. That makes him at most 17 when he enlisted and at most 17 when he met Don Draper and at most 17 when he took over the identity of an officer who would have had to be a college graduate (June 1 is just a birthdate, apparently, although the dialog implied that the real Draper had just turned 40) and fooled every person in the Armed Services who encountered him. Including the ones who gave him a Purple Heart. > > Wait, it gets worse. Much worse. After leaving Korea he takes a job as a car salesman, attends CCNY for a time [although people have always asked why a college graduate would do this], moves to a job at a fur store, creates advertising for them after being there awhile, meets Betty, cons Roger into a job, and then marries Betty. In May 1953. That’s the accepted date. It’s about the latest it could have occurred, given the other dates presented over the course of the first four seasons. It’s corroborated by Sally’s age, since she’s usually thought of as being born in 1954. This can’t be too far off since 12 is the real actress’s age. > > So Dick Whitman was 16 in Korea. Or maybe 15. And 17 when he marries Betty. If Dick Whitman was born at the end of 1925, then he would have been about 24 when the Korean War started in 1950. He would have been 27 in 1953 when he married Betty. And the real Don Draper would have been six months younger, which was plenty old enough to have gone to college and spent a little time in the Army. I think you’re off by a decade. If anything this raises the question of what Dick Whitman did between school and joining the Army. That’s quite a few years that AFAIK aren’t accounted for. ---
**Author:** ![Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nunzio_Tavulari)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/111 "2012-03-27T09:09:01Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > If anyone is curious, [this is the original](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vFOzG3GYqo) “Zou bisou, bisou” by Gillian Hills. Sophia Loren sang the original in one of her movies. Gillian Hill’s version was a cover, sung in French. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/112 "2012-03-27T13:42:45Z")
> [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](#): > > Sophia Loren sang the original in one of her movies. Gillian Hill’s version was a cover, sung in French. OK, here’s [Sophia Loren](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ4odDli9O4)’s English original. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/113 "2012-03-27T14:09:11Z")
Why is this episode called “A Little Kiss”? Okay… never mind. I guess it’s because of the song, which must mean “little kiss.” > [@](#): > > Zou Bisou Bisou Translation > > “Zou Bisou Bizou” roughly translated to “oh kiss, kiss”. > Kiss kiss kiss > My God, how soft they are! > Kiss kiss kiss ---
**Author:** ![corkboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@corkboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/corkboard)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/114 "2012-03-27T14:28:35Z")
I hope hope hope they don’t end the series with the characters in their 70’s or 80’s. The makeup will be horrible- old age makekup is never convincing- and it would take me right out of the story. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/115 "2012-03-27T15:03:53Z")
> [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](#): > > Sophia Loren sang the original in one of her movies. Gillian Hill’s version was a cover, sung in French. Everything I’ve read suggests the opposite is true. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/116 "2012-03-27T15:19:10Z")
According to [_The Daily Beast_](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/26/mad-men-premiere-a-history-of-zou-bisou-bisou-megan-s-sultry-song-to-don.html), Hills made the first recording: > [@](#): > > The original version was recorded by Gillian Hills, a Brigitte Bardot lookalike who found fame as a French yé-yé girl—one of a handful of young, female European singers who catapulted yé-yé music into an international movement, popular among teens during the era. (“Yé-yé” refers to exclamations of “yeah yeah!” during rock and roll. ) > > “Zou Bisou Bisou was a summer smash for a 16-year-old, my first record, the summer of 1960,” Hills, who still records music and also works a visual artist, told _The Daily Beast_ in an email. > > A rendition of the song was later recorded by Maya Casabianca, an Israeli-French pop star, and landed on France’s Billboard chart in September 1961. > > … > > But Zou Bisou Bisou may not have been totally unfamiliar to Draper’s party crowd. Sophia Loren sang an English version, Zoo Be Zoo Be Zoo, in _The Millionairess_, a 1960 film that co-starred Peter Sellers. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/117 "2012-03-27T16:00:23Z")
Yeah, it would make absolutely no sense if the English version came first. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/118 "2012-03-27T17:11:31Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Yeah, it would make absolutely no sense if the English version came first. I wouldn’t be so sure. [From here:](http://www.vulture.com/2012/03/zoo-be-zoo-be-zoo-mad-men.html) > [@](#): > > Incidentally, Hill told the Daily Beast that hers was the original, though we can’t find any other source to support that. Plus, her version’s songwriting credits are Shepard, Tew, and Michel Rivgauche (who wrote for Edith Piaf), which is a clue that he adapted the Loren song. ---
**Author:** ![ekweizn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7c8e57/32.png) [@ekweizn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekweizn)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/119 "2012-03-27T17:24:50Z")
> [@DoctorJ](#): > > If Dick Whitman was born at the end of 1925, then he would have been about 24 when the Korean War started in 1950. He would have been 27 in 1953 when he married Betty. And the real Don Draper would have been six months younger, which was plenty old enough to have gone to college and spent a little time in the Army. > > I think you’re off by a decade. > > If anything this raises the question of what Dick Whitman did between school and joining the Army. That’s quite a few years that AFAIK aren’t accounted for. I thought it was clear from the scenes between Don/Dick in Korea and between Anna/Dick in California that the real Don was born at least several years before Dick. They actually addressed the inconsistency in season 4 when Pete brought in North American Aviation. If you’ll recall, Don blew up at Megan for filling in a security clearance request form for him with the Department of Defense–he then tells Pete to kill the account because “the dates are all wrong”. Don had to have falsified some documents to make the ages match up–and if you’re going to falsify documents, might as well make yourself younger than you actually are, right? ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793/120 "2012-03-27T17:34:51Z")
Last night when I checked IMDb credits, they were useless. Try [here](http://www.amctv.com/shows/mad-men/episodes/season-5/a-little-kiss) and click on “Credits” to see the guest stars. (Christine Estabrook is correct.) Note: Yet Another Bobby (YAB?). No Betty. Maybe January Jones wasn’t ready for filming after having her kid. We really need to see what she’s up to. The “Next Episode” doesn’t show her directly but has Henry yelling at her (apparently). (No Betty/Sally stuff means no Glen stuff. I gotta get my Glen fix.) It’s the subtle stuff among the women (including Sally) that runs thru this episode. Peggy hates Megan (crush on Don?, Megan taking the easy path to copy writing?). Megan hates Joan (probably thinks Joan and Don have a thing), etc. Pete doesn’t know how do drive? Interesting. Megan was running Don with the fake cleaning in her underwear thing. Don is in deep trouble here. I agree. Dick is something like ~3 years younger than Don. This came up when the defense contract was looming and Betty started to really get mad at Don. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-01-a-little-kiss-open-spoilers/616793.md?page=7)