# Mad-Men: 5.03 "Mystery Date" (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 9, 2012, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215 "2012-04-09T00:17:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/61 "2012-04-10T13:17:24Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > On this show? You have got to be kidding me! Brutal, coercive couplings are the norm on **Mad Men** , and Joan’s reaction to this one was a lot milder than, say, the au pair’s from (I think) the prior season. If dead-eyed passivity marks Joan as an obvious victim of rape, then Betty is one as well. And if Roger capitalizing on Joan’s post-mugging shock is fine and dandy with you, I think the eye-rolling high-horse attitude on display here is going in the wrong direction. > > The lack of clear black and white hats is the essence of this show. The whole point of that scene was coerced/unwanted sex. That was what that scene was getting at- that Joan was top dog at the office, but that Greg felt the need to dominate and humiliate her in her environment, to prove his manliness. She had power and respect at work, but was powerless with Greg. Other scenes at home where she’s waiting on Greg in a more subservient way, reinforced that. ---
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/62 "2012-04-10T13:55:53Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > On this show? You have got to be kidding me! Brutal, coercive couplings are the norm on **Mad Men** , and Joan’s reaction to this one was a lot milder than, say, the au pair’s from (I think) the prior season. If dead-eyed passivity marks Joan as an obvious victim of rape, then Betty is one as well. And if Roger capitalizing on Joan’s post-mugging shock is fine and dandy with you, I think the eye-rolling high-horse attitude on display here is going in the wrong direction. Capitalizing? You could say that Joan capitalized on Roger as easy as he capitalized on her. That was definitely consensual sex, even if one or both of them regretted it later. Regret != rape. Joan absolutely told him “don’t stop” in that scene. Joan told Greg to stop in the office, and he didn’t. Was it a horrible, brutal sex scene? No. But it was by no means consensual. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/63 "2012-04-10T14:16:19Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > And if Roger capitalizing on Joan’s post-mugging shock is fine and dandy with you, I think the eye-rolling high-horse attitude on display here is going in the wrong direction. And if you think that’s what happened there, and that it’s somehow comparable to what happened with Greg in the office, then you’re simply not paying attention to the relationships on this show. That’s a bummer, because you’re missing out on a lot of interesting stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/64 "2012-04-10T14:23:21Z")
Do we know that Don strangling that woman was a dream? I mean, maybe Megan is just the best wife ever! “Oh crap. Don killed another old flame. Sigh. Better take the service elevator down to the dump. Hey, it’s almost 6:30! I should make this fast so I can get his breakfast ready.” Also, I’m wondering about Joan’s line on how her husband was never a good man, even before they were married “and you know what I mean,” she finishes. But would he, really? Yeah, it’s fun to call him Dr. McRapey and perhaps that line was a shout out to the fans. But I’m of the opinion that anyone who forces himself on his fiancee like he did probably doesn’t think anything of it. Or, more specifically, probably doesn’t think anything _bad_ about it. So would he even understand what Joan was referencing there? ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/65 "2012-04-10T14:47:10Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > Do we know that Don strangling that woman was a dream? I mean, maybe Megan is just the best wife ever! > “Oh crap. Don killed another old flame. Sigh. Better take the service elevator down to the dump. Hey, it’s almost 6:30! I should make this fast so I can get his breakfast ready.” > > Also, I’m wondering about Joan’s line on how her husband was never a good man, even before they were married “and you know what I mean,” she finishes. But would he, really? Yeah, it’s fun to call him Dr. McRapey and perhaps that line was a shout out to the fans. But I’m of the opinion that anyone who forces himself on his fiancee like he did probably doesn’t think anything of it. Or, more specifically, probably doesn’t think anything _bad_ about it. So would he even understand what Joan was referencing there? Did he not have some trouble performing under normal circumstances? Or am I remembering wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Misnomer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/misnomer/32/14897_2.png) [@Misnomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misnomer)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/66 "2012-04-10T14:48:09Z")
When Mr. Francis had trouble waking his mother, for a moment I was positive that Sally was going to be found dead of a Secanol overdose. (She _could_ be dead, I suppose, but I think they would have revealed that before the end of the episode.) > [@ekweizn](#): > > The juxtaposition of the nurse murders, Don’s dream, and Grandma Francis/Sally was really striking–all of them ended up with someone under the bed! Except that Sally ended up under the couch. 🙂 > [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > What I hate about dream sequences is that dreams are NOTHING like that. Maybe _your_ dreams are nothing like the dream sequences you see on TV/in movies, but that doesn’t mean others can’t find them believable… > [@Enderw24](#): > > I mean, maybe Megan is just the best wife ever! LOL! ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/67 "2012-04-10T15:01:09Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > Also, I’m wondering about Joan’s line on how her husband was never a good man, even before they were married “and you know what I mean,” she finishes. But would he, really? Yeah, it’s fun to call him Dr. McRapey and perhaps that line was a shout out to the fans. But I’m of the opinion that anyone who forces himself on his fiancee like he did probably doesn’t think anything of it. Or, more specifically, probably doesn’t think anything _bad_ about it. So would he even understand what Joan was referencing there? I was wondering about that, too. It would strike me as very odd for Joan to be referring to the incident in Roger’s office, since it isn’t clear to me that she considered what happened “rape” (although it was obviously nonconsensual), and I’m positive that Greg didn’t. I don’t know what she was talking about. > [@](#): > > When Mr. Francis had trouble waking his mother, for a moment I was positive that Sally was going to be found dead of a Secanol overdose. (She could be dead, I suppose, but I think they would have revealed that before the end of the episode.) Sally had her eyes open and was moving under the couch, so probably not. However, I’ve seen the episode twice now, and both times I thought that Henry’s mother was dead when Henry and Betty (who is losing weight) walked in. She’s not, I gather, but it’s kind of a weird scene. Also, watching the episode again, Joan’s line of, “Men wanted to come home from World War 2 also!” is incredibly awkward. Christina Hedricks does what she can with such a clunky line, but it jarred me. Finally, are we sure that everything involving Don’s former fling (after the elevator) was a dream? My initial interpretation was that while the entire murder sequence was obviously imagined, the initial part where she shows up at the apartment could have been legitimate. ---
**Author:** ![Misnomer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/misnomer/32/14897_2.png) [@Misnomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misnomer)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/68 "2012-04-10T15:04:05Z")
> [@shy\_guy](#): > > Sally had her eyes open and was moving under the couch, so probably not. However, I’ve seen the episode twice now, and both times I thought that Henry’s mother was dead when Henry and Betty (who is losing weight) walked in. She’s not, I gather, but it’s kind of a weird scene. I watched the ep last night and don’t remember Sally having her eyes open or moving; I thought she was shown asleep/passed out under the couch. Maybe that’s what I wanted to see. 😉 But grandma definitely moved and moaned a little when Mr. Francis shook her. ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/69 "2012-04-10T15:08:01Z")
> [@Misnomer](#): > > I watched the ep last night and don’t remember Sally having her eyes open or moving; I thought she was shown asleep/passed out under the couch. Maybe that’s what I wanted to see. 😉 But grandma definitely moved and moaned a little when Mr. Francis shook her. I just checked, and you’re correct; Sally’s eyes are shut. I thought they were open the way the light hit her. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/70 "2012-04-10T15:11:11Z")
> [@salinqmind](#): > > Did they just drop the problem of Joan having a baby by someone else since her husband was overseas at time of conception? Or are we to infer she made a quick visit to see him at his base before he left (she was taking a bus ride last season after visiting the clinic, so she might not have been going back to NY but to whereever the husband was.) Greg wasn’t overseas when the kid was conceived; he’d just left & was waiting to be posted overseas. (Yes, some have said there might have been a quick visit; this was not directly shown.) Anyway, there wouldn’t have been a _big_ discrepancy. Greg is not a doctor–he’s a surgeon. I doubt he ever planned to specialize in Ob/Gyn or Pediatrics; the boring details might have escaped him. In some ways he’s intelligent; in others, he’s a bit dense. Concerning the difference between Greg’s rape of Joan & her alley encounter with Roger: She kept telling Greg no but he proceeded to fuck her. She could have screamed, but that would have been totally humiliating in her place of work. (In those days, you couldn’t rape your wife; they were not yet married, but had definitely “played house” already.) We don’t know that Joan thought of it as rape at the time, but she hadn’t forgotten it. (Nor had many of us.) When she was totaling up the Reasons to Keep Greg versus the Reasons to Dump Greg, it definitely went into column 2. In the alley event, Roger & Joan were swept away by a near encounter with death. I wondered how they dealt with her formidable foundation garments–but it definitely was not rape. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/71 "2012-04-10T15:19:15Z")
You know, I’m certain that Joan does \*not \*think of what Greg did as rape, which simply didn’t have as broad a definition back then. But she almost certainly considers it abusive, and understands perfectly that it was designed to humiliate her, and that’s not the action of a good man. ---
**Author:** ![lisacurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/41988e/32.png) [@lisacurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisacurl)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/72 "2012-04-10T15:30:38Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Greg wasn’t overseas when the kid was conceived; he’d just left & was waiting to be posted overseas. (Yes, some have said there might have been a quick visit; this was not directly shown.) > > Anyway, there wouldn’t have been a _big_ discrepancy. Greg is not a doctor–he’s a surgeon. I doubt he ever planned to specialize in Ob/Gyn or Pediatrics; the boring details might have escaped him. In some ways he’s intelligent; in others, he’s a bit dense. We can also consider the fact that Greg has no reason to believe Joan was cheating on him, and isn’t looking for a discrepancy. When you don’t want to know something, you don’t go looking for evidence of it. ---
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/73 "2012-04-10T15:40:46Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > You know, I’m certain that Joan does \*not \*think of what Greg did as rape, which simply didn’t have as broad a definition back then. But she almost certainly considers it abusive, and understands perfectly that it was designed to humiliate her, and that’s not the action of a good man. I’ve always been iffy on people calling what happened in the office rape. It seems like Joan could have yelled or fought back more vigorously; she wasn’t paralyzed in fear, nor did Greg have a weapon. Was it a horrible, unpleasant incident? Definitely, and Joan obviously remembers and resents him for it. But she also chose not to yell because she didn’t want to face the potential humiliation of being found out, and she went on to marry the guy. I don’t know many victims of rape who would consider public humiliation worse than being raped, nor would go on to marry the guy in what appears to be a non-abusive relationship. (in other words - I do think there are situations where women marry their rapists but those tend to be much more abusive and horrible relationships than Joan and Greg see to be in.) ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/74 "2012-04-10T15:51:39Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Anyway, there wouldn’t have been a _big_ discrepancy. Greg is not a doctor–he’s a surgeon. I doubt he ever planned to specialize in Ob/Gyn or Pediatrics; the boring details might have escaped him. In some ways he’s intelligent; in others, he’s a bit dense. Throughout history totally illiterate guys have done the basic counting. Is it possible that any guy hearing the news wouldn’t count backwards to try to figure out which time it was, where it took place, what position he was in? Doubly especially so if he had few opportunities, like leaves from base. I think it’s clear that a close enough time had to have happened. Joan might know exactly, but it’s not credible for Greg never to have thought about it. Every man in the service at that time would. (And before and since.) ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/75 "2012-04-10T16:00:07Z")
Really? I think lots of people consider public humiliation worse than rape. You can tell by the fact that they don’t report it. Again… he did it specifically to humiliate her. He saw that she was powerful and respected in that setting, and absolutely could not abide it. Calling for help would have resulted in her being humiliated in front of _everyone_, as opposed to just him. We can dither all day about whether it was “rape” (although again, I do wish people would not try to apply 2012 mores to something that happened in 1965), but it was not absolutely not consensual, and the idea that it was okay because she ultimately chose to give in rather than to endure further humiliation or possible physical harm (if I remember correctly, she did say he was hurting her) is kinda repugnant. I agree that going on to marry him anyway was stupid, but it doesn’t absolve him. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/76 "2012-04-10T17:11:20Z")
> [@shy\_guy](#): > > …Sally had her eyes open and was moving under the couch, so probably not. However, I’ve seen the episode twice now, and both times I thought that Henry’s mother was dead when Henry and Betty (who is losing weight) walked in. She’s not, I gather, but it’s kind of a weird scene… The images of Sally under the bed and Don hiding the woman he murdered under the bed are evocative of the one nurse who survived the murders by hiding under the bed. Very creepy episode. I didn’t notice, but is Betty already losing weight? Wasn’t last episode set over 4th of July? The nurse murders happened mid-July, so that is crazy fast. I hope they don’t just drop the whole Betty got fat thing without some more story building around it. ---
**Author:** ![Misnomer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/misnomer/32/14897_2.png) [@Misnomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misnomer)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/77 "2012-04-10T17:14:37Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > The images of Sally under the bed and Don hiding the woman he murdered under the bed are evocative of the one nurse who survived the murders by hiding under the bed. As was pointed out by **ekweizen** in post #11…but, as I pointed out in post #66, Sally was actually under a couch. (Unless there was some earlier scene of her under a bed that I’m forgetting?) ---
**Author:** ![lindsaybluth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90db22/32.png) [@lindsaybluth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsaybluth)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/78 "2012-04-10T17:16:06Z")
Perhaps I’m way off here, but I got a very odd vibe from Peggy and Dawn. **Sampiro** saw what I thought I saw…as in…I thought Peggy was interested in Dawn in _that_ way. But I’ve always found Elizabeth Moss very butch, so maybe it’s just me. Or was she just drunk? Anyone think Joan will tell Roger it’s his? Or try to get child support? Can Joan really afford her “lifestyle” as a single mom? Or will she try to extract support from Dr. Rape? Ginsburg seems exceptionally…unable to read people. He hadn’t a clue he was nearly fired. Odd, given his total ability to pull at their heart strings. ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/79 "2012-04-10T17:17:09Z")
> [@Misnomer](#): > > As was pointed out by **ekweizen** in post #11…but, as I pointed out in post #66, Sally was actually under a couch. > > (Unless there was some earlier scene of her under a bed that I’m forgetting?) It was a couch, but the imagery was clearly designed to evoke the murder scene, and the discussion of the murders in the paper. Plus, the couch _was_ Sally’s bed in that instance; she slept there because she was too scared to go to her room. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/80 "2012-04-10T17:19:06Z")
> [@Misnomer](#): > > When Mr. Francis had trouble waking his mother, for a moment I was positive that Sally was going to be found dead of a Secanol overdose. (She _could_ be dead, I suppose, but I think they would have revealed that before the end of the episode.) It was very bizarre. They played ominous music both when she took the pills and when she was under the couch, but nothing came out of it. It’s like the writers were trying to trick the viewers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215.md?page=5)