# Mad-Men: 5.03 "Mystery Date" (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 9, 2012, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215 "2012-04-09T00:17:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/81 "2012-04-10T17:24:36Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#): > > Ginsburg seems exceptionally…unable to read people. He hadn’t a clue he was nearly fired. Odd, given his total ability to pull at their heart strings. I think that that’s more of a matter of cultural differences. Ginsburg comes from a very different world from Don, who’s probably never heard the word “chutzpah” in his life. ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/82 "2012-04-10T17:29:58Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#): > > Perhaps I’m way off here, but I got a very odd vibe from Peggy and Dawn. > > **Sampiro** saw what I thought I saw…as in…I thought Peggy was interested in Dawn in _that_ way. But I’ve always found Elizabeth Moss very butch, so maybe it’s just me. Or was she just drunk? > > Anyone think Joan will tell Roger it’s his? Or try to get child support? Can Joan really afford her “lifestyle” as a single mom? Or will she try to extract support from Dr. Rape? > > Ginsburg seems exceptionally…unable to read people. He hadn’t a clue he was nearly fired. Odd, given his total ability to pull at their heart strings. I definitely didn’t see a hint of attraction between Peggy and Dawn. Peggy was drunk (which, combined with her behavior at Don’s birthday, could be a red flag) and then embarrassed at having revealed a bit of racism. I _am_ curious what Joan is going to do in terms of money. I can’t imagine that she can afford that apartment alone. I’m equally sure that Roger will ensure that neither Joan or the baby will want for anything. I think that Ginsberg’s behavior is continuing the scenario we saw with Megan in the season premiere, where those outside the office just don’t understand these people. Ginsberg was the only one taken aback by the rest of the office gawking over the murder photos, for instance. That said, I got exactly the opposite out of that scene. Ginsberg was _right_; there was no way Don was going to fire him over that. SCDP would lose an employee with good ideas whom clients like to some other agency, they’d have to hire someone else to handle Mohawk, and they might have wound up losing the account. Ginsberg just seems really confident. ---
**Author:** ![Christopher\_Robin\_Davies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8dc957/32.png) [@Christopher\_Robin\_Davies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Christopher_Robin_Davies)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/83 "2012-04-10T17:38:34Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > Because I read interviews with the actress, I know Joan felt her then-fiance raped her on Don’s carpet that time. As a viewer of the series, I had trouble distinguishing between that scene and the subsequent post-mugging coupling she and Roger shared against a brick wall. Not trying to be an insensitive male here, but can someone spell out the difference for me? At best, it was sloppy storytelling. Are you serious? This question strikes me as bizarre. Joan specifically tells Roger not to stop when they have their post-mugging sex. She specifically asks Dr. Rape to stop and he forces himself on her. Joan & Dr. Rape: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPDglMH5veY](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPDglMH5veY) Joan & Roger: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvyXn2U\_xDo](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvyXn2U_xDo) Do you not know what the word rape means? ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/84 "2012-04-10T17:40:12Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > It was very bizarre. They played ominous music both when she took the pills and when she was under the couch, but nothing came out of it. It’s like the writers were trying to trick the viewers. I don’t think they were trying to trick anyone\*, but it’s definitely some pretty heavy foreshadowing of the life Sally has ahead of her - which I’m assuming will involve a lot of pills. (ok, maybe a little. It’s still a television drama afterall). ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/85 "2012-04-10T17:44:12Z")
The long hiatus might have played tricks with my memory but didn’t Peggy’s photographer friend (the girl with the photo sheet this last ep) come onto her in a previous season and Peggy politely told her that ain’t her thing? I wouldn’t read anything into her and Dawn. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/86 "2012-04-10T17:46:06Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > It was very bizarre. They played ominous music both when she took the pills and when she was under the couch, but nothing came out of it. It’s like the writers were trying to trick the viewers. I think it’s foreshadowing… perhaps a drug problem in Sally’s future? ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/87 "2012-04-10T17:50:59Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#): > > Anyone think Joan will tell Roger it’s his? Roger already knows, she told him when she was “late”. ---
**Author:** ![lindsaybluth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90db22/32.png) [@lindsaybluth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsaybluth)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/88 "2012-04-10T17:56:59Z")
> [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](#): > > Roger already knows, she told him when she was “late”. Yes but doesn’t he assume she followed through with the “procedure”, and didn’t he offer to pay for it? > [@shy\_guy](#): > > Peggy was drunk (which, combined with her behavior at Don’s birthday, could be a red flag) and then embarrassed at having revealed a bit of racism. Good catch; everyone else has shifted from the heavy drinking but Peggy has just gotten into the swing of it. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/89 "2012-04-10T17:58:53Z")
> [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](#): > > Roger already knows, she told him when she was “late”. > [@lindsaybluth](#): > > Yes but doesn’t he assume she followed through with the “procedure”, and didn’t he offer to pay for it? Roger wouldn’t buy a bicycle for someone else’s baby. ---
**Author:** ![Christopher\_Robin\_Davies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8dc957/32.png) [@Christopher\_Robin\_Davies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Christopher_Robin_Davies)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/90 "2012-04-10T18:00:17Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > Roger wouldn’t buy a bicycle for someone else’s baby. Why not? He is throwing money around like confetti. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/91 "2012-04-10T18:01:49Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > I think it’s foreshadowing… perhaps a drug problem in Sally’s future? They spent way too long on that moment for it not to come up at some point. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/92 "2012-04-10T18:03:20Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I think that that’s more of a matter of cultural differences. Ginsburg comes from a very different world from Don, who’s probably never heard the word “chutzpah” in his life. Well, he did date that meshugganah Rachel Menken… ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/93 "2012-04-10T18:04:15Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#): > > Yes but doesn’t he assume she followed through with the “procedure”, and didn’t he offer to pay for it? In order to assume that, he’d have to be even worse at math than Greg is. Remember when Joan came to the office? “There’s my baby. Now get the rugrat out of the way so I can see her.” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/94 "2012-04-10T18:16:28Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#): > > Yes but doesn’t he assume she followed through with the “procedure”, and didn’t he offer to pay for it? And then somehow had a baby anyway? > [@Athena](#): > > I’ve always been iffy on people calling what happened in the office rape. It seems like Joan could have yelled or fought back more vigorously; she wasn’t paralyzed in fear, nor did Greg have a weapon. > [@DianaG](#): > > You know, I’m certain that Joan does \*not \*think of what Greg did as rape, which simply didn’t have as broad a definition back then. But she almost certainly considers it abusive, and understands perfectly that it was designed to humiliate her, and that’s not the action of a good man. I can’t believe what I’m reading. There is absolutely no question that that scene was meant to be what we would now consider rape. (Whether Joan would have actually used the word “rape” to describe it is irrelevant. She clearly feels about it the same way that she would regardless of the terminology.) You don’t think that women who get raped sometimes don’t call out or fight back? Like, maybe when they’re being raped by their fiances, whom they thought they trusted? Like, maybe when they’re at their workplaces, and would rather not let people know what’s going on? Like, maybe when they are so stunned by what’s happening that they are too disoriented to fight back? > [@](#): > > Was it a horrible, unpleasant incident? Definitely, and Joan obviously remembers and resents him for it. But she also chose not to yell because she didn’t want to face the potential humiliation of being found out, and she went on to marry the guy. I don’t know many victims of rape who would consider public humiliation worse than being raped, nor would go on to marry the guy in what appears to be a non-abusive relationship. (in other words - I do think there are situations where women marry their rapists but those tend to be much more abusive and horrible relationships than Joan and Greg see to be in.) All this is really irrelevant to the question of whether that incident constituted non-consensual sex. > [@Krokodil](#): > > On this show? You have got to be kidding me! No, I’m not. > [@](#): > > Brutal, coercive couplings are the norm on **Mad Men** There has not been one other incident in this show that is so clearly non-consensual rape by force. There is absolutely no ambiguity with regard to this incident. > [@](#): > > and Joan’s reaction to this one was a lot milder than, say, the au pair’s from (I think) the prior season. If dead-eyed passivity marks Joan as an obvious victim of rape, then Betty is one as well. You can’t tell whether something is rape based on the reaction. Different people react in different ways to things. > [@](#): > > And if Roger capitalizing on Joan’s post-mugging shock is fine and dandy with you, I think the eye-rolling high-horse attitude on display here is going in the wrong direction. “Capitalizing”? Again, you have got to be kidding. That incident was clearly mutually consensual. Honestly, your misreading of these situations make you sound like a space alien. > [@](#): > > The lack of clear black and white hats is the essence of this show. The lack of clear black and white hats is a different issue. We’ve seen that Greg might have his good qualities. That has nothing to do with your finding ambiguities in the two sex scenes. There is no ambiguity. The Joan-Greg scene in the office was unambiguously nonconsensual rape by force and the Joan-Roger scene in the alley was unambiguously consensual sex. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/95 "2012-04-10T18:20:21Z")
Ascenray, if you’d read the rest of my post, you’d have noticed that I said that she wouldn’t have considered it “rape” specifically because what happened was not generally covered, even in the vernacular, by the definition of “rape”\* in 1965\*. The word would simply not have occurred to her. It was downright unavailable to her. I was emphatically NOT arguing that he didn’t rape her. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/96 "2012-04-10T18:35:40Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Ascenray, if you’d read the rest of my post, you’d have noticed that I said that she wouldn’t have considered it “rape” specifically because what happened was not generally covered, even in the vernacular, by the definition of “rape”\* in 1965\*. The word would simply not have occurred to her. It was downright unavailable to her. It’s arguable, I think this is probably an overstatement of the situation in 1965. Yes, in many jurisdicitons the legal definition of rape didn’t include spousal rape. And possibly this might have been extended in practice to situations in which the two people intended to be married. Many prosecutors might also have refused to prosecute when the two people had been in a sexual relationship. (There were also legal regimes under which a man could not be guilty of rape if the victim were a prostitute or was shown to be otherwise have been unchaste or have engaged in consensual pre- or extra-marital sex, but I don’t know how far back you might have to go for that.) So, perhaps, the state would not have legally defined that circumstance as rape. (I have some doubts about it, especially since Joan and Greg weren’t married at the time.) However, that is far, far different from saying that the term “rape” was “downright unavailable” to Joan in that situation. I’d like to see some serious scholarship or evidence before even meeting you halfway on that. The concept of rape has been around as long as humans have been around, and even if legal sanctions have not been always extended to all the circumstances that are encompassed by our current legal concept of “rape,” people’s attitudes and thoughts are not always strictly defined by legal boundaries. I think that quite a lot of people in 1965 would have thought of what happened to Joan as rape. And perhaps even in decades before that. > [@](#): > > I was emphatically NOT arguing that he didn’t rape her. I didn’t quote or comment that part of your post because I had no argument with it. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/97 "2012-04-10T18:47:47Z")
Spousal rape laws weren’t widely passed until the 80s, and in 2012 people are arguing that what happened to her wasn’t rape, because she didn’t resist enough. I think that in 1967, two years after it happened, people still thought of rape as what happens when Richard Speck busts into your house, not what happens when your husband (to be) fails to give a shit that you’re unenthusiastic. ---
**Author:** ![Alias](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e4f/32.png) [@Alias](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alias)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/98 "2012-04-10T18:51:13Z")
I vote rape. Regarding the rest of the episode, I thought it was one of the darkest of the series. Very unusual, very foreboding, and very out of the ordinary. It’s definitely stuck with me since sunday. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/99 "2012-04-10T18:52:24Z")
> [@shy\_guy](#): > > It was a couch, but the imagery was clearly designed to evoke the murder scene, and the discussion of the murders in the paper. Plus, the couch _was_ Sally’s bed in that instance; she slept there because she was too scared to go to her room. Also, the scene in which Sally was watching the Mystery Date TV commercial while the grandmother is talking on the phone about the murders was macabe, who will be behind the door? ---
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/100 "2012-04-10T18:53:42Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > You don’t think that women who get raped sometimes don’t call out or fight back? Like, maybe when they’re being raped by their fiances, whom they thought they trusted? Like, maybe when they’re at their workplaces, and would rather not let people know what’s going on? Like, maybe when they are so stunned by what’s happening that they are too disoriented to fight back? I never said that I don’t think that women who get raped sometimes don’t call out or fight back. I completely agree that a woman can be scared, stunned, or disoriented and be unable to call out or fight back. What I don’t necessarily think or believe is that Joan was in that situation. I especially don’t believe it when she went ahead and married the guy. Joan has been shown to be highly intelligent and very much a schemer. I think that if she had been horrifically upset by what happened in that office, she would have found a way to avoid marrying Greg. She wasn’t happy with what happened, but c’mon, she showed more emotion when dealing with the off-color drawings that the one guy did in Season 4 than she’s shown over the rape. If they wanted us to believe that she unambiguously believed he raped her, they needed to show us that she was going through more pain, or demonstrated that she was suppressing her feelings, or something. With what was shown on screen, meh. She didn’t like what he did, but she doesn’t have any major short or long term physical, mental, or emotional affects from it either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215.md?page=6)