# Mad-Men: 5.03 "Mystery Date" (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 9, 2012, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215 "2012-04-09T00:17:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/141 "2012-04-11T20:00:49Z")
> [@Bleach23](#): > > I think Ginsberg is smarter than people are giving him credit for. I think he knows how to play a fool and does it to get what he wants. He sold the campaign he wanted and bypassed Don. He dropped the Cinderella idea quickly when Don shut him down and only brought it up in front of the client. He wanted to pitch the idea from the beginning and he did it in a way where he was not directly defying Don. After the pitch when he was at the bar and Harry said “you almost got fired” and Ginsberg said “I don’t think so”, I think Ginsberg was right. Don was not thrilled by how the pitch went but he was not going to fire him, Don needed to put him in his place but that was it. I also think he also acted like a fool in his interview with Peggy so she would not be intimated by his creative work. Also, he was playing on her need to “help” the little guy. I guess time will tell if Ginsberg is an idiot or savant. Well, Ginsberg seems to have been fired from a lot of places, so I’m not sure if he is as clever about work issues as you think. Creatively, yes. How long has it been since Don has had a great idea? He just doesn’t seem hungry enough any more. Ginsberg is, and I wouldn’t be surprised if he was the pivot for them to get into the big time again. And I’m looking forward to the fireworks when Don claims his ideas. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/142 "2012-04-11T20:28:11Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > What kind of doctor is Greg if he doesn’t realize that the baby is not his? Perhaps he won’t admit it to himself, but somewhere he knows. That might explain why he re-upped and why he left so easily. > > I was expecting him to be dead meat in Nam myself - still might happen. He’s a surgeon in Saigon. He isn’t under fire. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/143 "2012-04-11T20:30:42Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > He’s a surgeon in Saigon. He isn’t under fire. Yet. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/144 "2012-04-11T20:46:29Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > What kind of doctor is Greg if he doesn’t realize that the baby is not his? Joan got knocked up pretty quickly after he left and human gestation times have a few weeks of play in them. Assuming he wasn’t keeping track of Joan’s menstral cycle, not knowing the kid isn’t his is hardly surprising, doctor or not. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/145 "2012-04-12T05:11:24Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Joan got knocked up pretty quickly after he left and human gestation times have a few weeks of play in them. Assuming he wasn’t keeping track of Joan’s menstral cycle, not knowing the kid isn’t his is hardly surprising, doctor or not. And this is the first time he’s seen the baby. Joan couldn’t told him the baby was 3 or 4 weeks premature and he wouldn’t know any better. He wasn’t there when the baby was born, and I highly doubt it would even occur to him to look at the medical records. His only experiance with infant development milestones is probally 1 class he took in med school. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/146 "2012-04-12T07:25:04Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > Yet. I think you mean Tet. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/147 "2012-04-12T08:04:05Z")
Well, that’s offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nunzio_Tavulari)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/148 "2012-04-12T15:47:35Z")
It’s foolish to argue what constituted rape in 1965. It’s a TV show. One written, produced, directed and acted by people whose age was in single digits during the period depicted. And that’s being generous. Hamm was born in 1971, Hendricks in 1975, Moss in 1982. Jon Slattery was 3 years old in 1965. Matthew Weiner hadn’t reached a year old. None of these people have any concrete idea what were the mores of the day. I believe the only person in the entire cast who was an adult during this period was Robert Morse. I would be surprised if any of those debating this point had obtained their driver’s permit by 1965. All of the scenes of this drama were written from a current point of view and meant to be interpreted that way. It doesn’t matter if a woman in Joan’s position in 1965 would consider herself raped or not. We are supposed to apply the modern judgement that she was. It’s a TV show and definitely not a historical document. I was ten years old in 1966 and lived in the New York suburbs. I know for a fact that this show gets it wrong as often as it gets it right. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/149 "2012-04-12T15:59:46Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Spousal rape laws weren’t widely passed until the 80s The concept that forcing a spouse to have sex against his or her will is rape didn’t magically spring out of the ground in the 1980s. The fact that legal change happened in the 1980s was the result of decades, perhaps centuries, of individuals who experienced it and thought it wasn’t okay. So the fact that the laws were changed in the 1980s is pretty good evidence to me that there were plenty of people 20-25 years earlier who believed it _was_ rape. As I said before, 1965 isn’t some alien land. My parents and all their friends were adults in 1965. I think most of us have a pretty good idea of what at least some people alive in 1965 were like. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/150 "2012-04-12T16:33:11Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The concept that forcing a spouse to have sex against his or her will is rape didn’t magically spring out of the ground in the 1980s. The fact that legal change happened in the 1980s was the result of decades, perhaps centuries, of individuals who experienced it and thought it wasn’t okay. So the fact that the laws were changed in the 1980s is pretty good evidence to me that there were plenty of people 20-25 years earlier who believed it _was_ rape. > > As I said before, 1965 isn’t some alien land. My parents and all their friends were adults in 1965. I think most of us have a pretty good idea of what at least some people alive in 1965 were like. Can you cite an example of a successful prosecution of spousal rape from 1965 or earlier? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/151 "2012-04-12T16:33:52Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > And this is the first time he’s seen the baby. Joan couldn’t told him the baby was 3 or 4 weeks premature and he wouldn’t know any better. He wasn’t there when the baby was born, and I highly doubt it would even occur to him to look at the medical records. His only experiance with infant development milestones is probally 1 class he took in med school. Premature is going the wrong way. That’s what you use to claim that a baby was born after marriage, not before leaving. And what medical records? The birthday? The day he left? I, who am not that kind of a doctor, knew exactly when my kids were conceived. I suspect that being thousands of miles away he spent a lot of time thinking about the last opportunity for conception. I don’t know that this will be a factor, but his cluelessness has bothered me for a while. On the other hand, he does seem to be a crappy doctor. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/152 "2012-04-12T16:35:42Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Well, that’s offensive. This is beginning to Hanoi me. Anyhow, before he walked out I thought for sure they were going to frag him - I’m sure he makes inspection tours of hospitals in the fields. Now I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/153 "2012-04-12T16:42:31Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > This is beginning to Hanoi me. > > Anyhow, before he walked out I thought for sure they were going to frag him - I’m sure he makes inspection tours of hospitals in the fields. Now I don’t know. Don’t give up on that idea! I wouldn’t be at all surprised to learn of his demise the same way M_A_S\*H dealt with the death of [McLean Stevenson’s character.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLean_Stevenson) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/154 "2012-04-12T16:45:09Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Can you cite an example of a successful prosecution of spousal rape from 1965 or earlier? Why should I? Whether or not I could would neither prove nor disprove anything I have said. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/155 "2012-04-12T17:13:18Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Premature is going the wrong way. That’s what you use to claim that a baby was born after marriage, not before leaving. > And what medical records? The birthday? The day he left? I, who am not that kind of a doctor, knew exactly when my kids were conceived. I suspect that being thousands of miles away he spent a lot of time thinking about the last opportunity for conception. > > I don’t know that this will be a factor, but his cluelessness has bothered me for a while. On the other hand, he does seem to be a crappy doctor. 1960s mores were different. Most men left all that to the women to think about. It was a very different time for most middle class white guys. ---
**Author:** ![kath94](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/67e7ee/32.png) [@kath94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kath94)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/156 "2012-04-12T17:13:42Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > I think you mean Tet. > [@Alessan](#): > > Well, that’s offensive. > [@Voyager](#): > > This is beginning to Hanoi me. BOO! Hiss! (but well done!) ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/157 "2012-04-12T17:21:13Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I don’t know that this will be a factor, but his cluelessness has bothered me for a while. On the other hand, he does seem to be a crappy doctor. 80% of babies are born within two and a half weeks of a 40 week gestation time, so if Joan’s baby was born on the earlier side of normal, that means she can have waited for more then a month after Greg left to have had sex with Roger and still plausibly pass the kid off as her husbands. I don’t think we know exactly how long it was after Greg left that Joan slept with Roger, but my impression was it was just a few weeks, so I don’t think Greg has to be particularly stupid to think the baby is his. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/158 "2012-04-12T17:24:09Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > 80% of babies are born within two and a half weeks of a 40 week gestation time, so if Joan’s baby was born on the earlier side of normal, that means she can have waited for more then a month after Greg left to have had sex with Roger and still plausibly pass the kid off as her husbands. > > I don’t think we know exactly how long it was after Greg left that Joan slept with Roger, but my impression was it was just a few weeks, so I don’t think Greg has to be particularly stupid to think the baby is his. And also take into account the fact that after she discovered her pregnancy, she then went to visit Greg. So that’s another bit of wiggle room. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/159 "2012-04-12T18:54:43Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And also take into account the fact that after she discovered her pregnancy, she then went to visit Greg. So that’s another bit of wiggle room. Did she? When? I don’t recall that. Although, I think they are going to have to reveal that _something_ like that happened, because the baby was conceived something like **7 weeks** after Greg left. And, I’m sorry, but no one in the service is that dumb. And no doctor is that dumb. A week or two? Sure. But almost 2 months??! No way. I don’t know what she did, but she had to have done something, because this is just not believable. But I have faith Weiner will explain in the end. ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215/160 "2012-04-12T19:52:23Z")
> [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](#): > > All of the scenes of this drama were written from a current point of view and meant to be interpreted that way. It doesn’t matter if a woman in Joan’s position in 1965 would consider herself raped or not. Well, certainly it matters a lot when working out the motivations and reactions of the characters… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-03-mystery-date-open-spoilers/618215.md?page=9)