# Mad-Men: 5.09 "Dark Shadows" (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 14, 2012, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-09-dark-shadows-open-spoilers/621829 "2012-05-14T01:34:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-09-dark-shadows-open-spoilers/621829/81 "2012-05-16T16:58:03Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > What were those cubes? Cheese? With grapefruit? Swiss cheese. Tom & Lorenzo’s latest [Mad Style](http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/2012/05/mad-style-dark-shadows.html) is up, with stills & style commentary for the episode. > [@](#): > > Everything in this scene, from lighting to set dressing to props to that drab brown costume, are all in service to exactly one sentiment: > > “This really sucks.” > > Of course Betty would never use those words – or even think of her life in those terms – but these shots are a neat visual representation of the low level of annoyance and depression that both comes with dieting and kind of defines Betty’s general state to a T. ---
**Author:** ![Came\_Heavy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c89c15/32.png) [@Came\_Heavy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Came_Heavy)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-09-dark-shadows-open-spoilers/621829/82 "2012-05-16T17:07:35Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > At this point Ginsberg is the most creative person there, by a lot. His folder was full of ideas, and he responded to Don that he didn’t mind Don not showing his idea because he has a lot of them. Even the younger Don didn’t churn out ideas like that. Ginsberg is also used to being discriminated against in the ad business, as Roger clearly showed. He’s going to be able to pull them into the new cultural world - if he stays. But it’s becoming far-fetched how much Ginsberg’s mouth is getting away with. First with Don, Peggy, and Stan when Don initially describes his devil idea and Ginsberg’s condescending “Wow, that’s actually _good_”. Don didn’t like that one bit as witnessed by the look he gave Ginsberg along with “I’m glad I could surprise you”. Next, he’s flippant with Roger when he’s asked for ideas for the wine: “You know, I work for the agency …”, “And what’s for me? It’s a lot of work. My paying clients might suffer”. Roger forked over some dough but he could’ve just as easily told him to hit the road. When he really over-stepped was with Don in the elevator. Sure, he was disappointed his idea wasn’t pitched, but where did that “I feel bad for you” come from? He’s lucky Don merely came back with “I don’t think about you at all” instead of “You know what? Ponder your feelings while you’re in the unemployment line”. The sign on the door has Draper’s name on it, afterall, and Ginsberg’s getting away with too much insubordination for 1966. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-09-dark-shadows-open-spoilers/621829/83 "2012-05-16T17:14:20Z")
> [@Came\_Heavy](#): > > The sign on the door has Draper’s name on it, afterall, and Ginsberg’s getting away with too much insubordination for 1966. I don’t think you have any way of knowing this. It’s a man’s world after all, and it’s a creative business in which people are half in the bag most of the time. I’m sure that both Roger and Don are used to smart-mouthing. Hell, Roger’s made a career of it; it doesn’t make sense that he wouldn’t appreciate a little of it himself. In any case, Roger can’t fire Ginsburg on his own just for mouthing off. Ginsburg works for Don. And Don hired him knowing that he was a bit of a character. Don’s had years of experience with moody creative types. He’s not going to fire people willy-nilly just because of one incident. Creative businesses put up with a lot of shit from people who deliver, and that’s not just something that started in the 1970s. And part of the value of a period piece like this is to disabuse people’s assumptions regarding things like “this is how it was back then; it was totally different from now.” I remember a big disagreement over the fact that Don’s schoolteacher mistress was a jogger: “No one ever jogged in 1963.” Well, that’s simply laughable. Things change gradually over time. Changes in culture don’t just drop out of the sky on a date certain. And we’re watching part of the process of that cultural change. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-09-dark-shadows-open-spoilers/621829/84 "2012-05-16T17:21:31Z")
Ginsberg is a little too full of himself, though.he may not like that Don left his idea behind, whatever Don’s reason was, but they got the work. As far as the agency is concerned that’s all that matters, so Don made the right call. Maybe it was his ego, or maybe it was his instincts, who cares. Ginsberg’s ego seems to need just as much massaging as anybody else’s. They very well may lose Ginsberg, but it may not be all bad, if his ego becomes a problem. And the truth is Don’s idea was better than Ginsberg’s, IMO. I was actually surprised folks thought Ginsberg’s idea was at all good, it didn’t feature the product and it showed a snowball in a humorous but ultimately negative light. I thought it was horrible. actually. ---
**Author:** ![Katriona](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/katriona/32/113_2.png) [@Katriona](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katriona)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-09-dark-shadows-open-spoilers/621829/85 "2012-05-16T18:51:03Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > So was a SnoBall an Icee/Slushy kind of drink? It’s like a Sno-Cone - shaved ice with flavoring syrup. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-09-dark-shadows-open-spoilers/621829/86 "2012-05-16T19:19:56Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > I thought Sally outclassed/outflanked Betty with her (I’m paraphrasing) “Oh, yeah, they showed me pictures and told me all about Anna, thanks for mentioning” casual dismissal towards the end. Actually she did one better. “They showed me pictures **and spoke of her quite fondly**.” That last part was her big Fuck You to her mom. She overheard Megan & Don saying that Betty was trying to come between them. She realized she let herself be a pawn in Betty’s reindeer games… I don’t think it’s going to happen again. ETA: vis-a-vis WW, I was relieved that for the first time, Betty seems to have stumbled onto some effective group therapy. I mean, who would ever have expected for HER of all people to come out with “We’re all responsible for our own decisions.” Even if she didn’t really believe it, she said it out loud, which is an enormous step forward. Betty’s personal motto has been “it’s everyone ele’s fault I’m unhappy.” ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-09-dark-shadows-open-spoilers/621829/87 "2012-05-16T19:23:50Z")
Ginsburg getting to mouth off to everyone is stretching credibility for me as well. Remember when Peter nearly got fired for pitching an idea directly to a client? Peggy gets a pass for telling Don to shut up last week because they have that kind of relationship. Ginsburg should get fired just on principle. ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-09-dark-shadows-open-spoilers/621829/88 "2012-05-16T19:57:35Z")
I wonder if they’ll show more about the way WW was organized back then - I know they talked about the mandatory fish 5x/week, but there was also mandatory liver 1x/week (yuck), which I remember from my grandma being on it in the early/mid 70s. Ah! Here’s a bit about the plan as it was then: [http://b.feli.me/post/4782384374/original-1960s-weight-watchers-plan](http://b.feli.me/post/4782384374/original-1960s-weight-watchers-plan) ---
**Author:** ![corkboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@corkboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/corkboard)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-09-dark-shadows-open-spoilers/621829/89 "2012-05-16T20:03:36Z")
Considering how everyone at the firm universally acknowledges Ginsberg’s talents, if Don fired him over a little insubordinate quip, it’ll look as if he did it because he feels threatened. Don would much prefer to let him stay so he can show them that he’s worlds above Ginsberg’s level. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-09-dark-shadows-open-spoilers/621829/90 "2012-05-16T20:36:01Z")
> [@Katriona](#): > > It’s like a Sno-Cone - shaved ice with flavoring syrup. No, it’s a type of [snack cake](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sno_Balls). > [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > Ginsburg getting to mouth off to everyone is stretching credibility for me as well. Remember when Peter nearly got fired for pitching an idea directly to a client? That wasn’t just mouthing off. That was completely overstepping the bounds of his job and screwing the creative department up the ass in front of the client. And both Don and Roger understood it as an automatic firing situation. It’s nothing like mouthing off to the boss. ---
**Author:** ![Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nunzio_Tavulari)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-09-dark-shadows-open-spoilers/621829/91 "2012-05-16T20:47:45Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > No, it’s a type of [snack cake](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sno_Balls) No. It was a shaved ice type product that Pepsi put on the market in 1967. If you see the show again, you’ll see the Pepsi name and the sign that’s displayed in my second link. [trademark info](http://www.trademarkia.com/sno-ball-72271096.html) [advertising sign](http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1967-pepsi-soda-pop-sno-ball-tin-emb-sign) I have no recollection of it and I’m surprised that they attempted it. ---
**Author:** ![Katriona](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/katriona/32/113_2.png) [@Katriona](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katriona)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-09-dark-shadows-open-spoilers/621829/92 "2012-05-16T21:25:24Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > No, it’s a type of [snack cake](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sno_Balls). I assumed this is the version they meant, or the Devil/Hell idea wouldn’t make any sense; they wanted to make it seem “refreshing.” [http://snowballmachine.info/index.html](http://snowballmachine.info/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-09-dark-shadows-open-spoilers/621829/93 "2012-05-16T21:26:53Z")
> [@corkboard](#): > > Considering how everyone at the firm universally acknowledges Ginsberg’s talents, if Don fired him over a little insubordinate quip, it’ll look as if he did it because he feels threatened. Don would much prefer to let him stay so he can show them that he’s worlds above Ginsberg’s level. Plus they knew he was a jerk when they hired him, since he got fired from lots of previous jobs. It will be interesting to see how Don balances the need for his talent with distaste for his actions. Ginsberg might get a pass for being an alien - at least to that WASPy little enclave. In fact the whole series is in a sense a story of how the outsiders invade, starting with Peggy and continuing with the French Meagan. And Don was an alien also, coming from a very different background than the rest of them, but he felt the need to disguise it. I loved how when Roger asked Ginsberg if he could keep a secret he answered “no” - and proved he was right. But Ginsberg is the character on that show closest to me, so you’ll have to forgive me some favoritism. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-09-dark-shadows-open-spoilers/621829/94 "2012-05-16T22:23:45Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > No, it’s a type of [snack cake](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sno_Balls). > > That wasn’t just mouthing off. That was completely overstepping the bounds of his job and screwing the creative department up the ass in front of the client. And both Don and Roger understood it as an automatic firing situation. It’s nothing like mouthing off to the boss. Huh? The Bethlehem Steel pitch was nothing like what you described. Bethlehem Steel thought it WAS Don’s pitch and Peter said nothing to contradict that in front of the client. What’s “the screwing up the ass” part again? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-09-dark-shadows-open-spoilers/621829/95 "2012-05-17T00:32:08Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > Huh? The Bethlehem Steel pitch was nothing like what you described. > Bethlehem Steel thought it WAS Don’s pitch and Peter said nothing to contradict that in front of the client. What’s “the screwing up the ass” part again? Pete completely undermined Don’s prerogative to decide what creative ideas the client gets to see. As head of creative Don gets the final word on how the firm presents its creative face ti the public and to clients. By pitching, Pete not only undermined the creative department as a whole, he usurped Don’s decision-making authority and he did in a way, in front of the client, that made it very difficult not only to quash the rejected idea but made it impossible to continue pressing the idea he did want to sell. That’s true insubordination, not just mouthing off in private. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Downtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mr\_Downtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Downtown)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-09-dark-shadows-open-spoilers/621829/96 "2012-05-17T04:12:09Z")
A little throwaway line I forgot to mention. When Pete says the _Times_ wants to write about a “hip young agency,” Bert quickly corrects him: “Hep.” ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-09-dark-shadows-open-spoilers/621829/97 "2012-05-19T13:24:44Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > What were those cubes? Cheese? With grapefruit? Why was the toast so burnt… to eat it more slowly? I watched the last two eps back-to-back so this question may be from the other…did she put the Ready-Whip in her mouth and not swallow it because she had second thoughts or is/was that a dieting technique? I’m pretty sure this one must be from the other ep … why did Don look down the open elevator shaft and not report it…or was it clearly his imagination? Finally FWIW…Ginsberg’s add was alot better than Don’s…alot! ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-09-dark-shadows-open-spoilers/621829/98 "2012-05-19T13:33:42Z")
She impulsively grabbed the whipped cream to eat to feed an emotional need, realized what she’d done, and spit it out. She’s trying to break the emotional eating habit and gain control but had a moment of weakness. ---
**Author:** ![Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nunzio_Tavulari)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-09-dark-shadows-open-spoilers/621829/99 "2012-05-19T16:21:10Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > She impulsively grabbed the whipped cream to eat to feed an emotional need, realized what she’d done, and spit it out. She’s trying to break the emotional eating habit and gain control but had a moment of weakness. If she’d held it properly, she could have gotten a mouthful of just nitrous and forgotten her cravings. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-09-dark-shadows-open-spoilers/621829/100 "2012-05-19T16:36:57Z")
Why was the toast burnt? Was that a WW thing back then? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-09-dark-shadows-open-spoilers/621829.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-09-dark-shadows-open-spoilers/621829.md?page=6)