# Mad-Men: 5.11 "The Other Woman" (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 28, 2012, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296 "2012-05-28T00:21:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/41 "2012-05-28T15:28:22Z")
I’m glad for Peggy, moving on. That was a wrenching scene with her and Don. But what about Ken? Did she tell Ken? Didn’t they have a ‘pact’, or was she just so disgusted she said the hell with the pact. I have to watch the show again, but what ramifications does this have for Ken? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/42 "2012-05-28T15:41:51Z")
Near as I can tell, she completely blew Ken off which would be pretty shitty of her since he seemed sincere in his end of it (and cared for her as a person/co-worker). Maybe she’ll use her new position to get him an offer though. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/43 "2012-05-28T15:50:21Z")
> [@Zeldar](#): > > Why make Don even more of a schmuck than they already have How does this make Don a schmuck? It’s like using the literary technique of the unreliable narrator > [@](#): > > Cheating the audience It’s not cheating the audience. It’s giving us the benefit of the emotional perspective of two different characters. The scene now means two different things to us just as it means two different things to Don and Joan. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/44 "2012-05-28T15:53:29Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Near as I can tell, she completely blew Ken off which would be pretty shitty of her since he seemed sincere in his end of it (and cared for her as a person/co-worker). > > Maybe she’ll use her new position to get him an offer though. Yes, but it’s also another confirmation that the world assumes that she, as a woman, needs a man’s help to solve her problem. I’d be pissed, too. Ken didn’t mean to condescend to her but he did. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/45 "2012-05-28T15:53:46Z")
I’m a bit contrary on this episode. During the first half, I was thinking it was not one of the better episodes. A bit slow, and a bit of a stretch. But it seemed to pick up nicely in the 2nd half. I’m at a loss as to how they are going to keep the Peggy storyline going, as it might sort of fracture the plot structure. Of course, this is chicken feed compared to _Game of Thrones_… ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/46 "2012-05-28T16:41:29Z")
Under the circumstances, I would have done the same as Joan \*and \*Peggy. But then, I am a very tough dame. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/47 "2012-05-28T16:44:36Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > The stories I like best are the ones where the writer marches a character right up to a line we never thought he/she would ever approach, much less cross–and then gives that character a good, sharp shove. If you were thinking “Joan would _never_ do that!”, you’re watching the wrong show. The thing is though, it wasn’t really a matter of “Joan would never do that.” The issue is Joan Fucking Holloway being pimped out by the likes of Pete Campbell, and how horribly the whole thing was mishandled by the boys. Think about how profoundly less icky the whole thing would have been if Cooper (and it \*really \*should have been Cooper) had gone to her and said “We’ve all been asked to do some distasteful things for this business, and we all decide for ourselves whether or not to do them. This is entirely up to you. You know what’s at stake, and you can tell us to fuck off or we can negotiate. Either way, you and me, we’re good.” which was my impression of how he actually felt about it anyway. Instead, they all washed their hands of it and let Pete deal with it, leaving her with the impression that the partners were downright gung-ho about offering her up like a gift basket. Sitting around in the conference room clutching their pearls and discussing it amongst themselves might have been okay if they didn’t know that Pete had _already approached her_. When they discuss hitting up Ken’s father-in-law for business they at least have Ken in the room, but it literally never occurred to them to offer Joan that respect. Good on her for making sure THAT will never happen again. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/48 "2012-05-28T17:05:40Z")
> [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](#): > > Yes, but it’s also another confirmation that the world assumes that she, as a woman, needs a man’s help to solve her problem. I’d be pissed, too. Ken didn’t mean to condescend to her but he did. Eh, it was a two-way agreement. She didn’t throw a hissy fit over Freddy (another man) helping to set her up with interviews. ---
**Author:** ![BizarroRonJeremy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4da419/32.png) [@BizarroRonJeremy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BizarroRonJeremy)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/49 "2012-05-28T17:33:03Z")
One thing we seem to forget regarding the Don/Joan exchange is that in Joan’s POV, she says “I was told that everyone was onboard” meaning of course, she thought Don voted yes, too. So knowing this, is she disappointed that she went through it, or relieved to know that at least one of them was totally against the idea…or both. She was being a real team player by not letting on to Don that it was too late. Doing so would have jeopardized a brilliant presentation. But she was putting herself first. Her 5% would be worth much more if SCDP landed Jag. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/50 "2012-05-28T17:42:17Z")
Peggy told Ken to screw the pact before she started going on interviews. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/51 "2012-05-28T17:46:21Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > I know Don walked out of the initial “should we whore Joan out?” meeting but it seems strange that his presence wouldn’t be required/requested for the decision to make her partner, especially since this dillutes his own share of the company. I’m not saying that dilution will harm him significantly, just that it was done completely without his consent or knowledge as a senior partner and without mitigating circumstances (like being AWOL in California). Don holds only 25 percent and Pete made that point right after he left the room. In any legal entity there are quorum and voting rules and they never require 100 percent attendance. ---
**Author:** ![phreesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@phreesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phreesh)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/52 "2012-05-28T18:02:06Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Don holds only 25 percent and Pete made that point right after he left the room. In any legal entity there are quorum and voting rules and they never require 100 percent attendance. Do we know the ownership stakes? Seeing as how he was left out of the discussion, Don would have a good case to demand that Joan’s 5% come out of the others’ stakes. Also, I suppose Stirling could argue the same as he said something like, “I’m not paying for it.” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/53 "2012-05-28T18:10:32Z")
> [@phreesh](#): > > Do we know the ownership stakes? 1. Yes, we do. Cooper, Sterling, and Draper have full shares (25 percent each). Pryce and Campbell have half shares (12.5 percent each). 2. As soon as Don left the room, Pete said, “We’re 75 percent of the company. We don’t need him.” > [@](#): > > Seeing as how he was left out of the discussion, Don would have a good case to demand that Joan’s 5% come out of the others’ stakes. Also, I suppose Stirling could argue the same as he said something like, “I’m not paying for it.” It doesn’t matter. If the governing bylaws say that a quorum of 75 percent of the shares can dilute the shares, then Don has nothing to say. He’s outvoted. ---
**Author:** ![Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nunzio_Tavulari)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/54 "2012-05-28T18:14:51Z")
> [@PeacePlease](#): > > I thought that even though Lane was covering his ass it was still brilliant of him to give her that option. I thinbk that you aren’t giving Lane enough credit. He just gave her his job, thus giving her the respect that she deserved (career-wise) and putting the company’s financial future in familiar and capable hands. All told, Peggy was a copywriter, and that’s lower down the totem pole than accounts man. She could not have attained partnership for several more years at the earliest. By having Joan debase herself personally, she gained power in the workplace, opening up the possibilities so that the next woman to come along won’t have to. Mark my words, in the season finale he’ll have an unfortunate accident that will be a surprise to all but him. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/55 "2012-05-28T18:19:05Z")
Peggy’s reaction to Joan’s partnership was fantastic, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/56 "2012-05-28T18:26:22Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Peggy told Ken to screw the pact before she started going on interviews. But at that time she was _planning_ to leave (hence her starting to interview). Which is why it was shitty. She was never serious about it and Ken, for all we’ve seen, was. I don’t doubt for a second that if Ken had come in with a job opportunity, Peggy would have been all over it. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/57 "2012-05-28T18:39:39Z")
I loved this episode. The contrast between the guy telling Peggy that essentially to advance she would need to forgo kids, while at the same time Lane is telling Joan that she should do this for her kid. Peggy smiled at the end because she is making it th? Ginsberg is indeed talentede hard but respectable way, while Joan, while arguments can be made, it is not at all respectable. I also think Peggy knows that the only way she will ever be considered more than just a girl who should be happy where she is, she needed to move on, which is exactly what she was telling Don. the question now is how will they replace her, but he is volatile and too self-centered. Also, I wonder if the other ad agencies were asked to do what SCDP did and refused which is one reason why it wasn’t even close. BTW, I don’t think Peggy has given up on Ken just yet, she told on first and he told her should leave, she didn’t really get a chance to consider Ken. Right now there is Pryce’s thing and now this Joan thing could really tear up the company. Especially if folks start to suspect that the reason Peggy left was because of what happened with Joan. And the Roger-Joan confrontation over this is going to be pretty pretty messy. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/58 "2012-05-28T19:28:39Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > The thing is though, it wasn’t really a matter of “Joan would never do that.” The issue is Joan Fucking Holloway being pimped out by the likes of Pete Campbell, and how horribly the whole thing was mishandled by the boys. This. Pete was the go-between in all of this, twisting what he said to Joan about the initial proposition from the client, twisting it more when he repeated it to his partners. > [@](#): > > Think about how profoundly less icky the whole thing would have been if Cooper (and it \*really \*should have been Cooper) had gone to her and said “We’ve all been asked to do some distasteful things for this business, and we all decide for ourselves whether or not to do them. This is entirely up to you. You know what’s at stake, and you can tell us to fuck off or we can negotiate. Either way, you and me, we’re good.” which was my impression of how he actually felt about it anyway. _ **Instead, they all washed their hands of it and let Pete deal with it, leaving her with the impression that the partners were downright gung-ho about offering her up like a gift basket.** _ This is the worst part of it. A lot was taken for granted by everyone, going just on what Pete was reporting. Was it Lane or Cooper who said to Pete something like, “When you go back to her, be sure and tell her that ‘no’ is an option.” But Pete didn’t do that, because he is a scum-sucking bottom feeder. > [@](#): > > Sitting around in the conference room clutching their pearls and discussing it amongst themselves might have been okay if they didn’t know that Pete had _already approached her_. And when Pete reported what she had said, namely, “You couldn’t afford the price,” he \*knowingly \*took it completely out of context. She said it to him as a way of dismissing him as a scum-sucking bottom feeder, but Pete \*reported \*it to the partners as though she were literally willing to fuck the client **IF SCDP WOULD PAY A HIGH ENOUGH PRICE**. Not a metaphorical price, but an actual dollars and cents price. That was NOT what she meant or really what she said when taken in context. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/59 "2012-05-28T20:50:37Z")
Brian Batt’s character…Sal, the gay artist guy. Didn’t Don find out he was gay, and then fire him because he wouldn’t sleep with a potential client? So it’s not like pimping out your staff to get accounts is a new practice for them. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/60 "2012-05-28T20:56:20Z")
I’m not sure that the firm is in the financial trouble people here are making out. Lane did take an advance that was the basis for his embezzlement, but thought that coming business would cover it. Turns out some (most?) of the cash went to cover when Mohawk stopped advertising, but now that they pull in Jaguar that should help out quite a bit, and they’ll doubtless get other revenues out of it. Eventually of course Lane should be caught out. This is at least a big part of why he suggested Joan go for a percentage - if she’d gone for cash he’d have been outed right then, since he’s not going to be able to pull another 50K advance. Also thought the spliced scenes was at least partially an homage to the Godfather movies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296.md?page=4)