# Mad-Men: 5.11 "The Other Woman" (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 28, 2012, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296 "2012-05-28T00:21:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Made\_in\_Macau](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@Made\_in\_Macau](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Made_in_Macau)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/161 "2012-05-30T20:43:40Z")
I’d like to share The Guardian’s blog as it has some fascinating points (which I considered presenting here as mine for a second) specifically about Ginsberg in this ep. > **[Mad Men: Season 5, episode 11 – The Other Woman](https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2012/may/29/mad-men-episode-11)** > > Paul MacInnes's series blog: In an epic episode, Peggy, Joan, Roger, Pete, Lane and Megan all saw their lives shift dramatically. Did it take you by surprise? Hope you enjoy and come back here to cross-fertilize ideas. MiM ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/162 "2012-05-30T20:57:20Z")
> [@Made\_in\_Macau](#): > > I’d like to share The Guardian’s blog as it has some fascinating points (which I considered presenting here as mine for a second) specifically about Ginsberg in this ep. > > [Mad Men: Season 5, episode 11 – The Other Woman | Mad Men | The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2012/may/29/mad-men-episode-11) > > Hope you enjoy and come back here to cross-fertilize ideas. > > MiM I don’t see anything about Ginsberg in there. What am I missing? I think he totally missed the point of Joan’s look back at Peggy or why Peggy smiled. Joan, in my opinion wasn’t quietly celebrating some victory over Peggy. If anything she was quietly celebrating a victory for Peggy and maybe thinking about why it couldn’t be different for herself. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/163 "2012-05-30T21:00:45Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > I kind of assumed that she didn’t go through with it and that was why she was so mopey. I think Megan is having to come to the realization she might not be all that. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/164 "2012-05-30T21:42:35Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > I think Megan is having to come to the realization she might not be all that. I believe that people who face rejection get mopey whenever it happens, regardless of whether they think they’re “all that.” For the record, I don’t believe that Megan has displayed inordinate self-regard. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/165 "2012-05-30T21:44:57Z")
By the way, I don’t think there’s much chance that Pete’s going to be punished by the other partners. He holds a significant share the clients in his hands. If they piss him off, he can take the business with him. ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/166 "2012-05-30T22:05:32Z")
I don’t think Megan has any particular delusions about her abilities or the industry she’s trying to break into. After all, she was already trying to get actress work before she started at SCDP. I think she was just bummed from having been treated like a piece of meat at the casting. So, what are we to make of Ginsberg’s “She comes and goes as she pleases” line in reference to Megan? Was that just Ginsberg getting the inspiration for his pitch to Don? ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/167 "2012-05-30T22:10:34Z")
> [@shy\_guy](#): > > So, what are we to make of Ginsberg’s “She comes and goes as she pleases” line in reference to Megan? Was that just Ginsberg getting the inspiration for his pitch to Don? It was both. She inadvertently gave him the idea. ---
**Author:** ![Rhiannon8404](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhiannon8404/32/17929_2.png) [@Rhiannon8404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhiannon8404)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/168 "2012-05-30T22:13:11Z")
> [@shy\_guy](#): > > I don’t think Megan has any particular delusions about her abilities or the industry she’s trying to break into. After all, she was already trying to get actress work before she started at SCDP. I think she was just bummed from having been treated like a piece of meat at the casting. > > So, what are we to make of Ginsberg’s “She comes and goes as she pleases” line in reference to Megan? Was that just Ginsberg getting the inspiration for his pitch to Don? I agree about Megan. I don’t think she thinks she’s “all that”. I think she just really wants to have given it her best shot. I wondered about Ginsberg’s remark, as well. I was like, “Huh? she doesn’t even work there any more, she can come visit her husband anytime she wants, and leave when she wants.” ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/169 "2012-05-30T23:27:06Z")
> [@Rhiannon8404](#): > > I wondered about Ginsberg’s remark, as well. I was like, “Huh? she doesn’t even work there any more, she can come visit her husband anytime she wants, and leave when she wants.” That bothered me too, especially since we’ve seen family at the office many times in past seasons. But not this season. If anybody else had their spouses flounce into the office whenever they pleased they’d hear about it from Don. He changed and the office environment has changed, and that’s probably what Ginsberg’s comment is supposed to reflect. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/170 "2012-05-30T23:36:18Z")
Peggy’s had her boyfriend and her photographer friend by the office several times this season and no one seemed to care. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/171 "2012-05-30T23:55:33Z")
> [@Mixolydian](#): > > I’m not sure I entirely agree; my first reaction was the same as yours, but I subsequently thought that with Joan knowing what a slimeball Pete is, she guessed he might perceive it as he did, and she could find just how high (or low) these boys were willing to go, always having the last word in the process. > > If she was as insulted as your interpretation makes her out to be, I don’t think her response would have been as low-key as it was, even uttering the same words. I think she was more bemused than insulted because the Jaguar guy is a sleaze, and so is Pete. She expects shit like this from slime like them. She got insulted when men she respected, who she thought respected her back, got on board with it. If you remember, she was quite a bit less low key when Lane came to her. > [@Jophiel](#): > > I was speaking of the very beginning of the series. After Joan talks to Peggy and sets her up with birth control, Peggy makes a mistake (I think it was letting Pete see some research) and Don tells her if it happens again, she’ll be fired. Peggy makes a very awkward pass at Don and Don tells her to drop it. > > Peggy is obviously relieved, albeit embarrassed (and this sets up the relationship between her and Don for the series), because sleeping with Don was NOT something she actually wanted to do. She was led to believe it was expected of her which is evident both in her nervous attempt at it and in her relief when she’s shot down. The person who led her to believe it was Joan, both in her words and her actions. I very much doubt that Peggy was some unique snowflake in this and that Joan didn’t give every new girl the same treatment (lecture and pills). Joan was complicit in the whole “getting pimped out and passed around like a piece of SC property” thing years ago so I’m hardly going to clutch my pearls for her today. I just rewatched that scene, and I can confidently say that you’re recalling it incorrectly. Joan did not lead her to believe that she was \*expected \*to fuck her boss, although she did imply that he may give it a shot. She \*did \*make it clear that part of Peggy’s job was to be attractive. She also presumed that part of Peggy’s goal there was to find herself a husband. In light of all these things, she acknowledged that office sex happens, and made an appointment for Peggy to get on the pill. If Peggy interpreted it as being expected to fuck anyone who asked, that was due to her own inexperience, insecurity, and inclination to believe the worst. If you believe that any of this was equivalent to what the partners did to Joan, well… you’re a guy, aren’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/172 "2012-05-31T00:09:43Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Joan did not lead her to believe that she was \*expected \*to fuck her boss, although she did imply that he may give it a shot. She \*did \*make it clear that part of Peggy’s job was to be attractive. She also presumed that part of Peggy’s goal there was to find herself a husband. In light of all these things, she acknowledged that office sex happens, and made an appointment for Peggy to get on the pill. If Peggy interpreted it as being expected to fuck anyone who asked, that was due to her own inexperience, insecurity, and inclination to believe the worst. Right. when your supervisor marches you to a doctor to get put on birth control, it’s obviously your fault for misinterpreting it. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/173 "2012-05-31T00:26:05Z")
Whatever. Like I said, I \*just \*watched it. You’re free to remember it however you like. Even if Joan had come right out and said “You’re boss is going to expect to fuck you. I’d suggest going along if you like working here.” there would be the small matter of Joan not being in a position to stop said boss from expecting to get laid or firing anyone who refused. She wasn’t “pimping” the secretarial pool, she wasn’t really the boss. Again, if you think what Joan said to Peggy is the equivalent of being literally pimped by the partners, you are simply wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/174 "2012-05-31T00:39:41Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Peggy’s had her boyfriend and her photographer friend by the office several times this season and no one seemed to care. You may be right, but I got the impression that they stopped in after office hours when people were staying late. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/175 "2012-05-31T00:55:56Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Again, if you think what Joan said to Peggy is the equivalent of being literally pimped by the partners, you are simply wrong. That’s true. Joan got 5% the company, the other girls under Joan just got left behind after the big office heist. ---
**Author:** ![Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nunzio_Tavulari)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/176 "2012-05-31T00:58:22Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Now if we only had an expert on Madison Avenue… My father was a creative vice president for a mid-sized Advertising agency in NYC during the period that the show takes place. I am far from an expert, as I was in in my early teens in 1967 and paid little attention to the dynamics of Madison Avenue. But I attended several commercial shoots and met hundreds of ad men and related business men at my parents cocktail parties in the suburbs. I have a rough idea of what’s proper and what’s not. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/177 "2012-05-31T01:08:11Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > You may be right, but I got the impression that they stopped in after office hours when people were staying late. I remember her friend being there during working hours because people kept coming into the room and being shown the pictures. Also, it was the time when Don comes in and takes Megan away on her Howard Johnson’s dream vacation. I could have sworn her boyfriend was there before during working hours but I could be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/178 "2012-05-31T01:17:46Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Right. when your supervisor marches you to a doctor to get put on birth control, it’s obviously your fault for misinterpreting it. :rolleyes: It’s very clear that Joan’s assumption was that the goal of a girl like Peggy was to find a husband in the office and to move out to “the country” and in the meantime have affairs with rich, handsome men. She wasn’t telling Peggy she was expected to sleep with her superiors in order to keep her job. She simply assumed that Peggy would probably want to at some point, because that’s what everyone else like her wanted. In that context, she was teaching Peggy to take precautions not to get pregnant. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/179 "2012-05-31T04:10:48Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It’s very clear that Joan’s assumption was that the goal of a girl like Peggy was to find a husband in the office and to move out to “the country” and in the meantime have affairs with rich, handsome men. She wasn’t telling Peggy she was expected to sleep with her superiors in order to keep her job. She simply assumed that Peggy would probably want to at some point, because that’s what everyone else like her wanted. In that context, she was teaching Peggy to take precautions not to get pregnant. In other words she assumed Peggy had the exact same goals as she did. That’s why she was so shocked and bewildered when Peggy became a copywriter. > [@Acsenray](#): > > By the way, I don’t think there’s much chance that Pete’s going to be punished by the other partners. He holds a significant share the clients in his hands. If they piss him off, he can take the business with him. Anyone else think that Pete’s going to try and have Joan “entertain” a client again next season, only this time it’ll be something Pete brings up? I can easily see Pete doing, leading a highly unpleasant reaction from Joan & the other partners. And the very least eventually he’s going to get pissed at Joan for something (especially if she takes over Lane’s job) and bring it up again. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296/180 "2012-05-31T07:54:51Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It’s very clear that Joan’s assumption was that the goal of a girl like Peggy was to find a husband in the office and to move out to “the country” and in the meantime have affairs with rich, handsome men. She wasn’t telling Peggy she was expected to sleep with her superiors in order to keep her job. She simply assumed that Peggy would probably want to at some point, because that’s what everyone else like her wanted. In that context, she was teaching Peggy to take precautions not to get pregnant. At that time, Don was famous for _not_ availing himself of the secretarial pool. He only did so after Betty left him, when he had one brief encounter with Alison–a mutual thing, but badly handled by him. And then Megan came on to him, telling him she’d love to be a copywriter… At company gatherings, we saw a few secretaries drink along with the guys & then have some fun. Whether a brief fling led to a longer relationship or even marriage–was not up to Joan. But she didn’t want her girls knocked up. (As we learned later, she’d had more than one abortion–the first done by a midwife, when she was very young.) Unfortunately, Peggy did not realize that BC pills don’t start working immediately. Then she stayed in denial about her own pregnancy, while her career took off. She has continued to work that Wide Eyed Catholic School Girl thing, even though she apparently has a healthy appetite for sex. And she figured out how birth control works! (At one point, she picked up a guy when off the pill; she suggested an alternate activity.) Now Peggy is all grown up; that purple dress was quite lovely… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-5-11-the-other-woman-open-spoilers/623296.md?page=10)