# Mad-Men: 6.04 "To Have & to Hold" (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 22, 2013, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355 "2013-04-22T00:31:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/21 "2013-04-22T15:02:56Z")
Which I guess makes sense since Clough asks if they can join them at something like the “lonely hearts club”, implying that they were all losers. From a casual watching it did seem that Peggy & Co. got it since you only saw the two pitches and assumed that SCDP were working off their Heinz connection and Peggy off her insider info so why would there be a third company pitch? ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/22 "2013-04-22T15:46:19Z")
Someone made the comment that the ketchup people let the little guys scramble for the contract and then awarded it to J. Walter Thompson, the country’s biggest agency. Then one of the SCDP guys said, “But we paid for that room!” Stan shot Peggy the finger as he walked past her out of the bar. So that friendship is toast. ---
**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/23 "2013-04-22T16:28:46Z")
There were a lot of 60’s fashions in this one, I loved Joan’s Edwardian black velvet jacket with the gorgeous lace accents. Joan was no mini-skirted Twiggy and looked really matronly in that club, but her trendy office outfit the next day shows she might very well be making a move to be more assertive in her career. I can’t wait to read Tom & Lorenzo to see if I am right. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/24 "2013-04-22T16:39:12Z")
Don Draper needs to be more than self-destructive to be interesting. He’s not evolving. We’ve watched him for years, and he’s no farther along than he was in season one. Does Weiner think we’ll stop watching if Don stops cheating? ---
**Author:** ![Motorgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e36b37/32.png) [@Motorgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Motorgirl)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/25 "2013-04-22T16:49:35Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Stan shot Peggy the finger as he walked past her out of the bar. So that friendship is toast. Maybe not. Stan strikes me as the kind of guy who would flip you off if he’s peeved at you, but not necessarily be using it as a genuine “f-off I hate you” gesture. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/26 "2013-04-22T16:57:15Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Don Draper needs to be more than self-destructive to be interesting. He’s not evolving. We’ve watched him for years, and he’s no farther along than he was in season one. Does Weiner think we’ll stop watching if Don stops cheating? I think that expectations of Don (or anybody\*) coming out of this with a happy ending, or even better off, are probably doomed for disappointment. The oft-mentioned credits with the falling guy telegraph Weinter’s intent: they’re in free-fall, and it’s not going to be a soft landing. And as for Don in particular: he’s not only not improving, he’s getting _worse_. He’s sabotaging his marriage with Megan (consciously or subconsciously), is pushing his affair with the doctor’s wife into dangerous territory as it’s so close to home, and doesn’t even seem that engaged at work anymore. There was a brief period after divorcing Betty and getting fired up to found SCDP that he _had_ improved, but that’s long since disappeared in the rearview. - Except maybe Ken, if he gets out of advertising. And Trudy, if she divorces Pete’s worthless ass. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/27 "2013-04-22T17:01:27Z")
Stan is definitely done with Peggy. Not only flipping her the bird but he looked past her and said pointedly, “I think I see a friend.” I completely missed a third agency got the account. I think that undercuts the drama because I thought the fact that Heinz ketchup was looking was a secret. I fit wasn’t a secret then what Peggy did was not quite as bad. I assumed the phones on the tables was a gimmick so singles could meet each other. You see someone cute and you call their table. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/28 "2013-04-22T17:51:45Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > …Still, the bonus only came because of his outburst and I think he and Cosgrove (who wasn’t with SCDP for at least a year) are the only two originals left who are not yet elevated to partner. Ken made it very clear to Roger last season that he has no interest in ever being a partner after the Joan spent the night with the Jaguar guy. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/29 "2013-04-22T17:59:40Z")
I love how Peggy stole the “change the conversation” line from Don. Also the line from Roger: “Should we fire him before he cashes the check?” ---
**Author:** ![Disheavel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@Disheavel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disheavel)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/30 "2013-04-22T18:17:37Z")
I apologize to everyone for my theory last week that Stan was sending the Heinz information to Peggy in order to keep the friendship alive. The middle finger salute was my theory’s last stand. Megan’s ignorance of the invitation was a little bit of a stretch, but it did allow Don some awesome looks of “wtf” at her. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/31 "2013-04-22T18:23:01Z")
Joan has a nice enough apartment (though I think a touch more orange might help), but didn’t her friend say she had a room at the Waldorf? I think I’d have ended up there rather than sharing a bed at Joan’s. Was this the first time we’ve ever seen Joan do a casual hook-up? (We don’t know how far she went, but however far that was.) Over the course of the show she’s been with her husband, Roger in an on-off relationship, and the Jaguar cretin for major personal gain, but I was trying to remember if we’d seen her just make out with a guy for the fun of it. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/32 "2013-04-22T18:34:37Z")
Is it time yet for everybody to admit what I’ve been saying for several seasons: that Don isn’t a hero, he’s the worst person on the show? People love to hate Harry, and Pete, and Megan, and Betty, but they’re all better people than Don. That’s what Weiner has been saying all this time. Don is superficially admirable, but down deep he has no down deep. He’s all surface over a rotten interior. ---
**Author:** ![stoplight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@stoplight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stoplight)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/33 "2013-04-22T18:46:25Z")
There is a fine line between creating a borderline likeable character and one the audience outright rejects. Don has held us captive for some time now but both my wife and I are rejecting Don as a bore and predictable. Perhaps to get us emotionally involved with Don again karma needs to come a callin. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/34 "2013-04-22T18:47:32Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Joan has a nice enough apartment (though I think a touch more orange might help), but didn’t her friend say she had a room at the Waldorf? I think I’d have ended up there rather than sharing a bed at Joan’s. > > Was this the first time we’ve ever seen Joan do a casual hook-up? (We don’t know how far she went, but however far that was.) Over the course of the show she’s been with her husband, Roger in an on-off relationship, and the Jaguar cretin for major personal gain, but I was trying to remember if we’d seen her just make out with a guy for the fun of it. She picked up a guy in an earlier season after her roommate mad a pass at her. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/35 "2013-04-22T19:06:00Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Is it time yet for everybody to admit what I’ve been saying for several seasons: that Don isn’t a hero, he’s the worst person on the show? People love to hate Harry, and Pete, and Megan, and Betty, but they’re all better people than Don. That’s what Weiner has been saying all this time. Don is superficially admirable, but down deep he has no down deep. He’s all surface over a rotten interior. I’ve never thought of Don as a good guy, but I still think Pete is much worse than he. Where Don has been destructive and cruel, he’s occasionally shown an altruistic side (e.g., with Peggy) and has made some half-hearted attempts to change (e.g., at the start with Megan). With Pete, it’s all about Pete. He’s been manipulative and conniving even toward Trudy, who is basically the only person we’ve seen him get along with. Everyone else he’s jealous of and frequently working to undermine them. Pete may be around just to make Don look not quite so bad in comparison. ---
**Author:** ![stoplight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@stoplight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stoplight)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/36 "2013-04-22T19:12:00Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > I’ve never thought of Don as a good guy, but I still think Pete is much worse than he. Where Don has been destructive and cruel, he’s occasionally shown an altruistic side (e.g., with Peggy) and has made some half-hearted attempts to change (e.g., at the start with Megan). > > With Pete, it’s all about Pete. He’s been manipulative and conniving even toward Trudy, who is basically the only person we’ve seen him get along with. Everyone else he’s jealous of and frequently working to undermine them. > > Pete may be around just to make Don look not quite so bad in comparison. But Pete is a creepy A hole easily dismissed by the audience as mostly irrelevant sometimes annoying. Don on the hand is a force to be reckoned with even though he his boring and predictable ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/37 "2013-04-22T19:19:02Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > Stan is definitely done with Peggy. Not only flipping her the bird but he looked past her and said pointedly, “I think I see a friend.” > > I completely missed a third agency got the account. I think that undercuts the drama because I thought the fact that Heinz ketchup was looking was a secret. I fit wasn’t a secret then what Peggy did was not quite as bad. I am still confused about this. Stan told Peggy, “we met with Beans and Ketchup and it ends up that we aren’t allowed to even consider Ketchup because it will piss off Beans.” Afterwards, Pete is his slimy self and convinces Don to go for Ketchup anyway but there is no way that Peggy could know this. She used the info to go after Ketchup which she thought that SCDP wouldn’t be touching. How is this a problem? > [@](#): > > I assumed the phones on the tables was a gimmick so singles could meet each other. You see someone cute and you call their table. I remember hearing about those places but I thought that it was a 50’s teenage thing for some reason. I wouldn’t be surprised if there aren’t places now with iPads and you IM nearby tables. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/38 "2013-04-22T19:47:05Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Joan has a nice enough apartment (though I think a touch more orange might help), but didn’t her friend say she had a room at the Waldorf? I think I’d have ended up there rather than sharing a bed at… You and I are very different people. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/39 "2013-04-22T19:49:15Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Is it time yet for everybody to admit what I’ve been saying for several seasons: that Don isn’t a hero, he’s the worst person on the show? People love to hate Harry, and Pete, and Megan, and Betty, but they’re all better people than Don. That’s what Weiner has been saying all this time. Don is superficially admirable, but down deep he has no down deep. He’s all surface over a rotten interior. Who was under the impression that Don was a hero? I never thought that; he’s been cheating on his wives and lying about his name since the start. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/40 "2013-04-22T19:59:32Z")
I thought when Joan’ s friend said she had a room at the Waldorf, she was being ironic/kidding. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355.md?page=3)