# Mad-Men: 6.04 "To Have & to Hold" (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 22, 2013, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355 "2013-04-22T00:31:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/41 "2013-04-22T21:38:45Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Joan has a nice enough apartment (though I think a touch more orange might help), but didn’t her friend say she had a room at the Waldorf? I think I’d have ended up there rather than sharing a bed at Joan’s… I know this is the same apartment she lived in with Greg, but it the same one she had back in season 1? Because that was very clearly a one bedroom. You’d Joan would’ve upgraded to at least a 2 bedroom now that she has a baby and her mother living with her. She might not be making Don or Roger money, but surely she can afford one now. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/42 "2013-04-22T22:12:09Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Who was under the impression that Don was a hero? I never thought that; he’s been cheating on his wives and lying about his name since the start. People defend Don constantly and they hate on other characters to the same degree. It’s not just here, but all over the Internet. Somehow he manages to disappoint people every time he acts exactly like he has a dozen times in the past. I find the phenomenon of Don Draper remarkable. It’s brilliant on Weiner part’s to create a character like this and it’s wonderfully weird to watch people respond the way they do. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/43 "2013-04-22T22:21:20Z")
I think that’s less about Don being a “hero” in any good guy sense and more because, when he’s on, he’s a joy to watch. When he starts fucking things up, it’s disappointing because he’s more fun to watch when he’s being brilliant and having his shit together. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/44 "2013-04-22T22:42:14Z")
Don isn’t a hero, but he is the protagonist, as defined [here](http://fictionwriting.about.com/od/glossary/g/protagonist.htm). The term “center of gravity” is also appropriate. > [@](#): > > In complex works of literature, it may not be as obvious. Becky Sharpe is one of the main protagonists in Vanity Fair, but she’s extremely flawed. By the end of the book, she’s almost unlikable. In this way she’s a very good example of another truth: the well-written protagonists are round characters. They should be the most interesting, complex characters in your book or story. Becky Sharpe is by far more interesting than Vanity Fair’s extremely good Amelia, and for this reason, the story’s primary center of gravity remains Becky Sharpe. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/45 "2013-04-23T00:05:14Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > I think that’s less about Don being a “hero” in any good guy sense and more because, when he’s on, he’s a joy to watch. When he starts fucking things up, it’s disappointing because he’s more fun to watch when he’s being brilliant and having his shit together. THat’s a great explanation. I also think that, for me at least, part of the appeal is that he does what he wants no matter what. He sleeps with who he wants, he’ll walk from his job on principle, expect others to live up to his demands. Yes, I can see how self-destructive that behavior ultimately is. But as a person who spends most of my day doing what other people need me to do (like most us who work, are parents and are in relationships do), part of me envies his complete disregard of anything other than his own needs. ---
**Author:** ![stoplight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@stoplight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stoplight)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/46 "2013-04-23T00:37:33Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > THat’s a great explanation. > > I also think that, for me at least, part of the appeal is that he does what he wants no matter what. He sleeps with who he wants, he’ll walk from his job on principle, expect others to live up to his demands. Yes, I can see how self-destructive that behavior ultimately is. But as a person who spends most of my day doing what other people need me to do (like most us who work, are parents and are in relationships do), part of me envies his complete disregard of anything other than his own needs. I doubt to many of us could maintain an ongoing interpersonal relationship with a “Don” type. Perhaps at the start and for the interim we would be fascinated, intimidated, and in awe, yada yada, but eventually we would all just go away before he had a detrimental impact on us, at least the smart ones would. Only way I would be surprised by Don is if life flipped him on his ass. quick and hard. Maybe he catches a bat to the side of the noggin from the good Doc. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/47 "2013-04-23T00:52:52Z")
> [@stoplight](#): > > I doubt to many of us could maintain an ongoing interpersonal relationship with a “Don” type. Perhaps at the start and for the interim we would be fascinated, intimidated, and in awe, yada yada, but eventually we would all just go away before he had a detrimental impact on us, at least the smart ones would. Only way I would be surprised by Don is if life flipped him on his ass. quick and hard. Maybe he catches a bat to the side of the noggin from the good Doc. I think it would be awful to be in a relationship with him once the excitement wore off- of course you wouldn’t see all the bad stuff he was doing! But during the exciting phase… well, I bet it would be something else. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/48 "2013-04-23T01:22:28Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Harry was an ass and _way_ out of line Harry acted horribly, but one can’t deny that he kind of has a point. He may have made the agency the most money of any one (and was very much on the forefront of how important TV was going to be, from all the way back to the old agency). ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/49 "2013-04-23T03:01:01Z")
Harry’s pay is shocking. The name partners are probably making ten times that much, maybe a lot more, and we haven’t seen them bring in a dollar in new business. In fact, they just lost a huge account. I’d guess the point was to drive home the way that being able to play the game is far more important than mere skill level. Although it inadvertently reminded us that having Joan prostitute herself was wonderful television but insane in any world in which she would have to live with everybody knowing her act and those who encouraged it needing to defend their behavior at every mention of it. You can’t say that the king has no clothes. Or, Harry can’t. I’ve seen speculation elsewhere that Harry was protecting Scarlett because he’s having an affair with her. That seems bizarrely wrong to me, but what do you say? And speaking of Joan, was I the only one to notice that the shoulder of her dress was torn the next morning? How did that happen? ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/50 "2013-04-23T03:08:35Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > And speaking of Joan, was I the only one to notice that the shoulder of her dress was torn the next morning? How did that happen? I noticed it. I guess it was a rough night. I mean, the girls did go to sleep in their clothes. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Draper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Don\_Draper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Draper)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/51 "2013-04-23T03:55:32Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Was this the first time we’ve ever seen Joan do a casual hook-up? (We don’t know how far she went, but however far that was.) Over the course of the show she’s been with her husband, Roger in an on-off relationship, and the Jaguar cretin for major personal gain, but I was trying to remember if we’d seen her just make out with a guy for the fun of it. Joan apparently had a fling with (of all people) Kinsey some time before the start of season 1. Remember her reaction to the play he wrote (and that the employees of the old Sterling-Cooper agency did an impromptu reading of the night of the Kennedy-Nixon election.) ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/52 "2013-04-23T04:51:20Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I’ve seen speculation elsewhere that Harry was protecting Scarlett because he’s having an affair with her. That seems bizarrely wrong to me, but what do you say? Nah. Harry just liked having someone who brought him breakfast pastries and the like. That and the usual office turf wars thing and feeling emboldened by his Dow victory that morning. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/53 "2013-04-23T05:14:25Z")
> [@Don\_Draper](#): > > Joan apparently had a fling with (of all people) Kinsey some time before the start of season 1. Remember her reaction to the play he wrote (and that the employees of the old Sterling-Cooper agency did an impromptu reading of the night of the Kennedy-Nixon election.) I think it was in college, or at least before Kinsey joined Sterling-Cooper. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/54 "2013-04-23T05:31:47Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > …Anyone else get the vibe that Swinger Guy may have been interested in Don, too? I was somewhat dismayed to realize that was Ted McGinley… not usually a good sign for a show when he shows up. I was watching it and thinking, “Hey, that old fat dude has a totally Ted McGinley voice!” So I had to stay for the credits and go ewwwww… Also, the dude that Joan and her friend were flirting with looked really familiar, but I couldn’t place him. Don, a hero? He’s been an antihero (at best) from the git-go. And this episode he took the term “hypocrite” to stratospheric new levels. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/55 "2013-04-23T15:08:47Z")
Did anyone else find it odd that the writers would be worried about Don’s reaction to Megan doing a love scene? I’ve never heard of that being an issue with spouses of actors and actresses, in film or in real life. Maybe if the spouse was a provincial dumbass, but definitely not someone as sophisticated as Don. I thought it was a stretch, to add conflict. ---
**Author:** ![stoplight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@stoplight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stoplight)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/56 "2013-04-23T15:16:12Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Did anyone else find it odd that the writers would be worried about Don’s reaction to Megan doing a love scene? I’ve never heard of that being an issue with spouses of actors and actresses, in film or in real life. Maybe if the spouse was a provincial dumbass, but definitely not someone as sophisticated as Don. I thought it was a stretch, to add conflict. In short order Super Don will organize his mind around Megan’s love scene to justify his affair with Mrs. Doc. I know I know, his affair precedes Megan’s love scene but we talking his mind. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/57 "2013-04-23T15:19:21Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Did anyone else find it odd that the writers would be worried about Don’s reaction to Megan doing a love scene? I’ve never heard of that being an issue with spouses of actors and actresses, in film or in real life. Maybe if the spouse was a provincial dumbass, but definitely not someone as sophisticated as Don. I thought it was a stretch, to add conflict. It didn’t strike me as a stretch. This part of the sixties there were still two cultures battling it out: the stiff-ass oldsters and the free-lovin’ hippies. The writers probably assumed Don was in the former camp (which apparently he was). Especially since Megan gave off this innocent, good-girl vibe on the set, rather than the sex-kitten we’ve all seen her be in private. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/58 "2013-04-23T15:41:01Z")
Okay. I can’t help it. I think Megan is hideously unattractive. TOO skinny, lanky, and squirmy. Giant YELLOW horse teeth. In this episode, they were really yellow. And her tongue seems to be too big for her mouth. She chews her words when she talks. I don’t think she’s sexy (but I’m not a guy). I’ve forgotten why Don fell in love with her, and apparently he has, too. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/59 "2013-04-23T15:43:11Z")
As I remember, Don and Megan were with Don’s kids. One of the kids spilled a drink and she calmly cleaned it up. That contrasted with what Betty’s reaction would have been, which was to get angry at the children for screwing up. I think that appealed to Don. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/60 "2013-04-23T15:48:52Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > It didn’t strike me as a stretch. This part of the sixties there were still two cultures battling it out: the stiff-ass oldsters and the free-lovin’ hippies. The writers probably assumed Don was in the former camp (which apparently he was). Especially since Megan gave off this innocent, good-girl vibe on the set, rather than the sex-kitten we’ve all seen her be in private. Remember the episode when Betty bought a bikini at the country club fashion show and Don was appalled to see her in it. He got very angry, if I remember correctly. I think his reaction to Megan’s love scene was quite in character. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355.md?page=4)