# Mad-Men: 6.04 "To Have & to Hold" (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 22, 2013, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355 "2013-04-22T00:31:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/81 "2013-04-24T14:44:06Z")
I think Ken was with Pete and Jaguar guy when Jaguar guy originally made the proposition. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/82 "2013-04-24T14:55:54Z")
> [@stoplight](#): > > I am not suggesting he is justifying to anyone else but him, a narcissist must justify in order to keep their ego in tact. But, time will tell should the affair be made known to Megan what kind of verbal assault follows from Don. > Despite the love scene he has already justified the affair with Mrs. Doc, we just do not know how just yet. I have to agree with this. A narcissist’s mind doesn’t work like a normal mind. Narcissists never take responsibility for their horrible behavior. They do use any weak justification (concocted in their own minds) to enable them to do what they want. And their justifications are always illogical. It’s never their fault, it’s always the other person’s fault. And, yes, the justifications they come up with serve the purpose of protecting their “false face”. I can totally see where Don is justifying his latest affair as a passive aggressive way to get back at Megan for (unwittingly) offending Don my having her own needs and moving out of his sphere of influence by achieving success in her career. One of the things that I really like about how the show “shows” Don’s narcissism is the fact that he seems to always wake up very depressed. Narcissists are emotionally unstable (even if outward appearance says otherwise), and they can swing back and forth between a smug confidence and crushing self-loathing. I like, too, how some characters are not fooled by Don. For example, Mona’s remark that Don always finds a way to embarrass himself. I just love this show for how it hits the nail on the head about how narcissists act in real life and how so many can be fooled by what they appear to be. (Because a narcissist works hard to make sure that happens.) ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/83 "2013-04-24T15:07:53Z")
> [@ekweizn](#): > > Giving Dawn more responsibility is certainly bitchy 😉 She \*said \*it was a punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/84 "2013-04-24T15:13:36Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > I think Ken was with Pete and Jaguar guy when Jaguar guy originally made the proposition. He was. He was playing the guy down and trying to divert him (“Oh, we can get you lots of redheads”) while Pete was full steam ahead on Plan Joan. So there was never any question for Ken on what happened. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/85 "2013-04-24T15:34:16Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > She \*said \*it was a punishment. I think the fact that it IS more responsibility trumps the bitchiness. It’s a step up for Dawn. Not that she will ultimately go anywhere in that job. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/86 "2013-04-24T15:55:13Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Wasn’t she originally invited along? But she said she was too busy or something so Scarlett asked her to punch her out instead. I think asking Dawn was more a thing of opportunity than “Let’s make the black girl do it”. > > I don’t think they’ve been exactly clear on what Joan’s current responsibilities are. I’d say that she needs an office manager except, for all I know, she still has that as part of her primary duties. It’d be like saying Pete needs someone to handle Accounts. I think at least part of Scarlett’s thinking is that Dawn is really desperate to fit in and “one of the girls” instead of “the black girl”. As for Joan, she was the Office Manager at the old company and this one until episode 4.13 she was promate (without a raise) to “Director of Agency Operations”. Lane Pryce’s title was Finance Director (ie CFO); since he Joan became a partner & he died she’s apparently taken over his responsibilities in addion to her own. And then she has random duties like arranging Roger’s mother’s funeral. 😛 > [@Jophiel](#): > > He was. He was playing the guy down and trying to divert him (“Oh, we can get you lots of redheads”) while Pete was full steam ahead on Plan Joan. So there was never any question for Ken on what happened. Ken definantly knew, but it’d be really out of character for him to tell anyone. Maybe Harry doesn’t know about Herb and think Joan’s partnership is a reward for fucking Roger (something everyone knows she did). You know what would be really funny; if at the same time Harry’s making waves over a partnership they have another gay client like Lee Garnet or that guy Stan made the men’s room joke about. 😉 Roger would offer him the same deal just for shits & giggles. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/87 "2013-04-24T15:56:48Z")
> [@Sparky\_the\_Wonder\_Spirit](#): > > There’s something happening here. What is is ain’t exactly clear. > > :cough: There’s a man with a Scotch over there…? ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/88 "2013-04-24T15:58:21Z")
What accounts do we know SDCP still have? Jaguar and…? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/89 "2013-04-24T16:06:17Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > What accounts do we know SDCP still have? Jaguar and…? Dow, given last week’s events. ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/90 "2013-04-24T16:11:11Z")
Sheraton? Don’s presentation for the Royal Hawaiian may not have gone well but did they lose the business? Or was that a pitch to get the account? And based on them having a closet full of cameras, I assume Leica. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/91 "2013-04-24T17:08:56Z")
> [@obfusciatrist](#): > > Sheraton? > > Don’s presentation for the Royal Hawaiian may not have gone well but did they lose the business? Or was that a pitch to get the account? It didn’t sound as though they lost it, more of a “Well, back to the drawing board”. Pan up 45 degrees and make sure the hotel is in there. And a man. Who isn’t naked. So we know he’s not dead. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/92 "2013-04-24T17:14:28Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > What accounts do we know SDCP still have? Jaguar and…? Secor Laxatives since the beginning. Still never seen a pitch. Topaz. Chevalier Blanc. Maybe: Samsonite, Clearasil, and Playtex. Ken brought Mt. Dew with him, I think. Oh, here: > **[Client](https://madmen.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Client)** > > Clients handled by: Cutler, Gleason, and Chaough, McCann Erickson, Puttnam, Powell, and Lowe, Sterling Cooper Advertising Agency, Sterling Cooper Draper Pryce, Sterling Cooper & Partners. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/93 "2013-04-24T17:18:10Z")
I believe Clearasil is at Peggy’s agency now. They had to drop the account in order to get something bigger, Dow maybe. ---
**Author:** ![kath94](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/67e7ee/32.png) [@kath94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kath94)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/94 "2013-04-24T17:31:52Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > He was. He was playing the guy down and trying to divert him (“Oh, we can get you lots of redheads”) while Pete was full steam ahead on Plan Joan. So there was never any question for Ken on what happened. Pete’s always been a “yes man,” but lately his SUCKING UP is really getting to me.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/95 "2013-04-24T17:39:07Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > I believe Clearasil is at Peggy’s agency now. They had to drop the account in order to get something bigger, Dow maybe. Correct. Trudy’s dad is Clearasil and after CGC got them he kept singing Peggy’s praises to Ted Cough. ---
**Author:** ![Rhiannon8404](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhiannon8404/32/17929_2.png) [@Rhiannon8404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhiannon8404)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/96 "2013-04-25T03:37:44Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I think the fact that it IS more responsibility trumps the bitchiness. It’s a step up for Dawn. Not that she will ultimately go anywhere in that job. True. But also, if anything goes wrong with the times cards or office supplies go missing, she will definitely be fired. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/97 "2013-04-25T04:22:58Z")
Another question: What was the Heinz Beans campaign that was so successful it brought Timmy Ketchup to SCDC? Raymond didn’t like the “Campfire” campaign Peggy, Stan and Ginsberg presented for him. Did they come up with something else, or did he accept Campfire after all? ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/98 "2013-04-25T04:26:43Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > Another question: What was the Heinz Beans campaign that was so successful it brought Timmy Ketchup to SCDC? Raymond didn’t like the “Campfire” campaign Peggy, Stan and Ginsberg presented for him. Did they come up with something else, or did he accept Campfire after all? I guess enough time has elapsed that we’re supposed to assume that SCDP’s work for them was a success. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/99 "2013-04-25T04:30:48Z")
Didn’t Megan come up with a Heinz ad showing beans through the ages including beans in space? It was basically a mom perparing beand for her kids through the ages. ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355/100 "2013-04-25T04:32:39Z")
No, remember that them finding the perfect campaign for beans (first, having the idea, then realizing they were about to lose the campaign and then saving the day) was the moment of great success for Megan. It was when she realized she didn’t find the work satisfying and quit to return to acting. The campaign was mothers serving beans to their kids through history, from cavemen to future space families. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-6-04-to-have-to-hold-open-spoilers/656355.md?page=6)