# Mad-Men: 7.13 "The Milk & Honey Route" (open spoilers)

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-7-13-the-milk-honey-route-open-spoilers/719731>\
**Category:** Cafe Society\
**Tags:** soda-softdrinks\
**Created:** [May 10, 2015, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-7-13-the-milk-honey-route-open-spoilers/719731 "2015-05-10T23:34:04Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 10

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**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\
**Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-7-13-the-milk-honey-route-open-spoilers/719731/181 "2015-05-15T00:45:58Z")

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🙂

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**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\
**Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-7-13-the-milk-honey-route-open-spoilers/719731/182 "2015-05-15T00:55:59Z")

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> [@terentii](#):
>
> Manor.

> [@Mr.Nylock](#):
>
> I warned you early on about the possibility that what I was going to write could be stupid . . .

Mr. Nylock was right the first time. The line from Hamlet is “to the manner born.” The title of the TV show “To the Manor Born” was a pun.

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**Author:** ![Washoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecae2f/32.png) [@Washoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Washoe)\
**Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-7-13-the-milk-honey-route-open-spoilers/719731/183 "2015-05-15T02:05:35Z")

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> [@Acsenray](#):
>
> The line from Hamlet is “to the manner born.” The title of the TV show “To the Manor Born” was a pun.

Well whack me upside the head with the stupid stick. Fifty-three trips around the Sun and I never knew that. What does it mean?

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**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\
**Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-7-13-the-milk-honey-route-open-spoilers/719731/184 "2015-05-15T02:37:26Z")

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> [@Washoe](#):
>
> Well whack me upside the head with the stupid stick. Fifty-three trips around the Sun and I never knew that. What does it mean?

It means he has an innate understanding of whatever custom, tradition, expectation, attitude, etc., is at issue because he was born into it. “Manner” meaning “how one behaves.” It need not refer only to the manner of the nobility, which is what “manor” would be restricted to.

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**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\
**Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-7-13-the-milk-honey-route-open-spoilers/719731/185 "2015-05-15T03:09:37Z")

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How do we know Shakespeare wasn’t just spelling “manor” the way he wanted, like everybody else back then did? :dubious:

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**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\
**Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-7-13-the-milk-honey-route-open-spoilers/719731/186 "2015-05-15T03:14:19Z")

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Xx

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**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\
**Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-7-13-the-milk-honey-route-open-spoilers/719731/187 "2015-05-15T03:20:50Z")

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> [@terentii](#):
>
> How do we know Shakespeare wasn’t just spelling “manor” the way he wanted, like everybody else back then did? :dubious:

It’s clear in context that’s he’s talking about custom, not nobility.

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**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\
**Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-7-13-the-milk-honey-route-open-spoilers/719731/188 "2015-05-15T03:27:15Z")

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And why would you assume that they were homophones?

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**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\
**Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-7-13-the-milk-honey-route-open-spoilers/719731/189 "2015-05-15T03:30:33Z")

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> [@terentii](#):
>
> How do we know Shakespeare wasn’t just spelling “manor” the way he wanted, like everybody else back then did? :dubious:

And not one scholar has ever noticed that?

Here’s the [real story](http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/to-the-manner-born.html):

> [@](#):
>
> Any examination of ‘to the manner born’ has to include a mention of its often-quoted incarnation, ‘to the manor born’. That has a similar meaning but stresses manorial birth, that is, it refers to someone born into the nobility.
> 
> The ‘manner’ version is earlier and there’s some debate amongst etymologists as to whether the second of these phrases was coined deliberately as a play on words, or whether it is just a misspelling of ‘manner’ as ‘manor’. The third possibility, that they arose independently, is highly unlikely.
> 
> ‘To the manner born’ was used by, and probably coined by, Shakespeare, in Hamlet, 1602:
> 
> > [@](#):
> >
> > ```
> > HORATIO: Is it a custom?
> > 
> > ```
> > 
> > HAMLET: Ay, marry, is’t:  
> > But to my mind, though I am native here  
> > And to the manner born, it is a custom  
> > More honour’d in the breach than the observance.
> 
> The meaning there is clear. Hamlet knows the custom being spoken of because he is native, that is, born locally.
> 
> Hamlet was written in or around 1600 and published in 1603. The ‘manor’ version comes much later. The earliest reference I’ve found so far is in The Times, July 1859, in a story about the Emperor of France’s visit to Austria:
> 
> > [@](#):
> >
> > ```
> > "Before Solferino, Austria was only an intruder in Italy; now she is as one 'to the manor born'."
> > 
> > ```
> > 
> > …
> 
> The question is, did ‘to the manor born’ originally become adopted because of a play on words or by mistake?
> 
> It would appear to be a simple mistake. Some people may have been aware is the ‘manner’ spelling but it’s hardly credible that everyone did. The ‘manor’ version of the phrase is now far more popular in the language than the earlier one. Examples of its use make it clear that the distinction between ‘manner’ and ‘manor’ is now being lost. Given the closeness of the meaning of the two phrases, they have now become virtually interchangable.

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**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\
**Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-7-13-the-milk-honey-route-open-spoilers/719731/190 "2015-05-15T04:19:33Z")

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Can you spell “facetious”? I knew you could! 🙂

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**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\
**Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-7-13-the-milk-honey-route-open-spoilers/719731/191 "2015-05-15T04:22:08Z")

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> [@Acsenray](#):
>
> And why would you assume that they were homophones?

Uhhhhh … because they are? :dubious: 😕

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**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\
**Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-7-13-the-milk-honey-route-open-spoilers/719731/192 "2015-05-15T09:27:51Z")

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To the throatwarbler mangrove born.

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**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\
**Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-7-13-the-milk-honey-route-open-spoilers/719731/193 "2015-05-15T10:25:02Z")

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> [@terentii](#):
>
> Uhhhhh … because they are? :dubious: 😕

man-ner

man-nor

Doesn’t seem like it.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\
**Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-7-13-the-milk-honey-route-open-spoilers/719731/194 "2015-05-15T12:03:31Z")

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> [@terentii](#):
>
> Uhhhhh … because they are? :dubious: 😕

1. You do understand that Shakespeare pronounced things differently than we do, right? And a lot of things that rhyme to us didn’t rhyme to him and vice-versa.

2. The very fact that the two words are spelled with different endings should indicate that there’s at least a chance that at some point they were pronounced differently.

3. I’m pretty sure Shakespeare scholars would have looked into this by now and told us definitively that when he wrote “manner,” he meant “manor.”

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**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\
**Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-7-13-the-milk-honey-route-open-spoilers/719731/195 "2015-05-15T15:41:24Z")

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> [@Sherrerd](#):
>
> that horrible childhood.

Don’s childhood was a nightmare by any standard, but it’s worth noting that bad parenting of one sort or another is pretty much universal on this show.

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**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\
**Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-7-13-the-milk-honey-route-open-spoilers/719731/196 "2015-05-15T16:14:00Z")

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OMG! How did this thread ever get 195 posts? I thought this thread was limited to one episode?

## Anyway, regardless, I figured it would be silly to start a new thread just to tell you all about this link.

## 23 Top Show Runners Discuss how They’d End Mad Men. [23 Top Showrunners on How They'd End 'Mad Men,' Utilize Cookie Lyon](http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/23-top-showrunners-how-theyd-794565)

ETA: I hope the above link has not already been posted in this humungous thread.

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**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\
**Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-7-13-the-milk-honey-route-open-spoilers/719731/197 "2015-05-15T17:42:51Z")

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Here’s another one:

[How will ‘Mad Men’ end? The internet’s 3 best theories](http://entertainthis.usatoday.com/2015/05/13/best-mad-men-series-finale-theories/)

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**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\
**Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-7-13-the-milk-honey-route-open-spoilers/719731/198 "2015-05-15T17:48:12Z")

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The third one is REALLY intriguing…

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\
**Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-7-13-the-milk-honey-route-open-spoilers/719731/199 "2015-05-15T17:56:32Z")

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I rather like the Coca-Cola theory. I remember thinking about the commercial in the one of the early seasons someone talks about the Port Huron statement. And they have set it up as a possibility in the meeting with the McCann CEO.

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**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\
**Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-7-13-the-milk-honey-route-open-spoilers/719731/200 "2015-05-15T18:16:55Z")

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> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#):
>
> Don’s childhood was a nightmare by any standard, but it’s worth noting that bad parenting of one sort or another is pretty much universal on this show.

Yes, that’s true (and is, arguably, a major theme of the show).

> [@Mr.Nylock](#):
>
> … It seems as if one thing ends up consistently happening in the series - people do not fare well outside of the pond they were raised in.

There _has_ been a lot of emphasis, consistently throughout the series, on Pete Campbell’s desirability as a business asset because of the accident of his birth (being from an old New York family). And, of course, on Don’s lack of such ‘credentials’.

In some sense, the show is a commentary on the very lack of social mobility that has, today, become a major concern for some observers of US socio-economic trends.

> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#):
>
> I predict no one goes out a window.  
> The opening credits have never seemed like a suicide to me- not with the character landing comfortable and relaxed on a couch at the end.

It’s not only that the credits-guy ends up on a couch—it’s that the credits guy never goes near a window.

He’s standing in the middle of an office, then the office starts falling around him.

_He never jumps_. (Yet so many remember and describe the credits as ‘guy goes out window’…it’s like a Rorschach test.)

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