# Mad Men - "Shut the door. Have a seat." - (Spoilers after airing) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 8, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-shut-the-door-have-a-seat-spoilers-after-airing/516852 "2009-11-08T23:14:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-shut-the-door-have-a-seat-spoilers-after-airing/516852/201 "2009-11-13T04:18:08Z")
FTR, Conrad Hilton is not the first real person portrayed in new footage. Heavyweight champion Floyd Patterson was shown briefly in the casino/speakeasy where Don and Roger took Freddie Rumson for a farewell (Don decked Jimmy Barrett, who gamely got up off the floor and asked an off-camera champ, “How’d I do Floyd?”) ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-shut-the-door-have-a-seat-spoilers-after-airing/516852/202 "2009-11-13T04:57:59Z")
My favorite comment about Joan was when they were looking through the office to prove all women were either Jackie Kennedy or Marilyn Monroe in their fashion sense. “Jackie… Jackie… Marilyn… Jackie…”. Someone points to Joan and says “Definitely a Marilyn…” which is corrected (by Roger?) as “No, Marilyn’s definitely a Joan”. Was red hair in during the early 1960s? I know the actress is a bottle-red (she’s blonde IRL) but I was wondering if many professional position women dyed their hair red during the Marilyn-Jackie years. Re: the finale and Reno- Betty is going to Reno around about mid-December 1963, which means that in six weeks it will be early February 1964. The Beatles came to NYC and made their first Sullivan appearance February 9. I wonder if this is why the writers didn’t have Betty wait until after Christmas. She’d be arriving at the airport about the same time as the Fab 4 (albeit on a domestic flight obviously). ---
**Author:** ![Leiko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Leiko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leiko)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-shut-the-door-have-a-seat-spoilers-after-airing/516852/203 "2009-11-13T05:03:58Z")
**Sampiro** , Christina Hendricks is blonde IRL, but she’s been dying her hair red since she was 10, according to IMDb. Even if they’re wrong, I’ve never seen her play a blonde. I think we’re supposed to believe that Joan is a natural redhead. I like your Beatles theory. It could be a wonderful episode. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-shut-the-door-have-a-seat-spoilers-after-airing/516852/204 "2009-11-13T07:11:21Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Re the recoiling at her hooking up with Duck it’s interesting in looking at the female doper’s responses. While there is all this earnest chatter about how she needs a man to respect her abilities etc. there is this virtual high school girl squeal of “Ewww! Gross!” when this very man pops up and seduces her because he’s not pretty enough, or young enough for their tastes. You left out, he’s an alcoholic dog murderer with a petty, vindictive bent. ---
**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-shut-the-door-have-a-seat-spoilers-after-airing/516852/205 "2009-11-13T07:18:05Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > You left out, he’s an alcoholic dog murderer with a petty, vindictive bent. Funny how many MM fans overlook that, the very essence of this nauseating scumbag. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-shut-the-door-have-a-seat-spoilers-after-airing/516852/206 "2009-11-13T11:47:31Z")
If we can let go of the dog for a second, is Duck really so much worse a guy than Don, or Roger, or Pete? I mean, he’s certainly less charming than Don or Roger, and doesn’t have the weak excuse of youth that Pete has. But really, mostly what we’ve been shown is that Duck is kind of an asshole (and shockingly inept) when he’s drinking. The dog thing was certainly unfortunate, but I’m not at all convinced that it’s worse than identity theft, desertion, philandering, selling your birthright to marry a trollop, or raping the neighbor’s nanny. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-shut-the-door-have-a-seat-spoilers-after-airing/516852/207 "2009-11-13T12:44:55Z")
> [@salinqmind](#): > > Funny how many MM fans overlook that, the very essence of this nauseating scumbag. Help me out, I missed a few episodes one season and don’t recall anything about Duck and a Dog. What did I miss? ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-shut-the-door-have-a-seat-spoilers-after-airing/516852/208 "2009-11-13T12:57:17Z")
Duck used to have a dog, until one day in a fit of pique he walked it down to the lobby, opened the door, and sent it out to fend for itself in the streets of Manhattan. It was a profoundly shitty thing to do. He did not, however, shoot the dog or drown the dog or strangle the dog with his bare hands or turn into a ravening monster and shred its throat with his own teeth, which is the impression one might get upon reading some of these posts. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Weird\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@The\_Weird\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Weird_One)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-shut-the-door-have-a-seat-spoilers-after-airing/516852/209 "2009-11-13T13:58:45Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > You left out, he’s an alcoholic dog murderer with a petty, vindictive bent. And in a show where everyone drinks like a fish, alcoholism is a terrible moral failing? He’s a recovering alcoholic, currently sober. He was on the wagon for a long time, had a relapse and made poor decisions under the influence, and is now sober again. Don and Roger would likely be considered functional alcoholics by today’s standard. It’s blind good luck that their body chemistry isn’t as susceptible to alcohol addiction and that they can still think clearly after a few drinks. I think **DianaG** has addressed the “dog murderer” charges pretty well. ---
**Author:** ![corkboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@corkboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/corkboard)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-shut-the-door-have-a-seat-spoilers-after-airing/516852/210 "2009-11-13T14:18:24Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Duck used to have a dog, until one day in a fit of pique he walked it down to the lobby, opened the door, and sent it out to fend for itself in the streets of Manhattan. > > It was a profoundly shitty thing to do. He did not, however, shoot the dog or drown the dog or strangle the dog with his bare hands or turn into a ravening monster and shred its throat with his own teeth, which is the impression one might get upon reading some of these posts. Thank you for that. I saw the episode and when I read comments about the ‘dog murderer’ I keep thinking 😕. This is NYC. The dog was probably claimed by somebody else before it got to the corner. ---
**Author:** ![Dorothea\_Book](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dorothea\_Book](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorothea_Book)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-shut-the-door-have-a-seat-spoilers-after-airing/516852/211 "2009-11-13T14:19:55Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > If we can let go of the dog for a second, is Duck really so much worse a guy than Don, or Roger, or Pete? I mean, he’s certainly less charming than Don or Roger, and doesn’t have the weak excuse of youth that Pete has. But really, mostly what we’ve been shown is that Duck is kind of an asshole (and shockingly inept) when he’s drinking. The dog thing was certainly unfortunate, but I’m not at all convinced that it’s worse than identity theft, desertion, philandering, selling your birthright to marry a trollop, or raping the neighbor’s nanny. You have a good point **DianaG** but then I don’t think anyone is suggesting that Duck is the most morally reprehensible man on the show–only that he’s a turn-off as Peggy’s lover. If Peggy got involved with Roger I’d be just as annoyed. Ditto if she rekindled her fling with Pete. Don is much more sympathetic character than any of these because a vast amount of screen time, awesome writing and great acting has been expended showing us his inner heart as he wrestles with his demons. He’s deeper and more compelling than any other male character in part because it would be impossible to structure an interesting narrative around someone who was nothing but the sum total of his betrayals and deceptions. That said, I’d really hate it if Peggy and Don became sexual and/or romantic partners. I actually don’t think Don would go for it–not because she isn’t attractive enough but because a) he doesn’t like fooling around with co-workers and b) he feels paternalistically towards her which is one of the few ways he successfully connects to people. (These are actually two of his most admirable qualities: a kind of Draper code.) And Peggy would be crazy to get involved with Don who always ends up screwing around the women he’s…screwing around with. This always leaves me thinking that the college boy was one of the best choices she’s been able to make even if it’s self-evident that she needs more than a string one one night stands (and with a bow to the consensus of this board–one night stands with _inexperienced young men_… 😉 ). I predict or at least hope for a better love interest. Remember the priest from season 2? He was interested. Someone like that could emerge from the non-advertising milieu–hopefully without a vow of celibacy. Of course given what the show is the person will turn out to have some devastating flaw. But I can deal with that so long as it’s no one from the Sterling Cooper world. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-shut-the-door-have-a-seat-spoilers-after-airing/516852/212 "2009-11-13T15:29:21Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > You left out, he’s an alcoholic dog murderer with a petty, vindictive bent. Compared to Don’s earlier payoff and disposal of his distraught crying brother and his _repeated_ attempts to abandon a wife and two small children I’m not seeing Duck as the personification of Beelzebub for letting his dog go. Duck’s may yet be revealed to be Satan on earth, but so far relative to how he treats other people he’s a pretty minor sinner. Duck’s in his mid 40’s, and Don’s in his late 30’s. I don’t recall anything approaching this level of visceral disgust when Don went after the teacher who appears to be approx the same age as Betty, or the 18-19 year old in California. A lot of women watching the show are projecting themselves into Peggy’s shoes and the absolute tidal wave of “Oh God no! Eww… Gross Barf etc.” is not (IMO) because they have made a finely parsed moral calculus of Duck’'s failings, but because he’s not the handsome prince they wanted who respected Betty’s talent, but a somewhat froggy older guy guy who respected Betty’s talent, whatever his other failings might be. Having said this I’m pretty sure there will be a plot twist shortly that casts him into the outer darkness as his utility as Peggy’s stud is about used up. Duck’s main fault is that he’s not as smooth or clever as Don, and I fully anticipate he will have his ass handed to him in some form or fashion before too long. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-shut-the-door-have-a-seat-spoilers-after-airing/516852/213 "2009-11-13T15:32:56Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > You left out, he’s an alcoholic dog murderer with a petty, vindictive bent. I don’t like dogs, but even so I wouldn’t have done what Duck did. That said, I don’t think it’s fair to call him a dog murderer. He abandoned the dog, yes, but that does not mean it died. Nor do I think the _alcoholic_ criticism is entirely fair. I’m not saying that he isn’t one; rather, I mean that he is aware of his drinking problem and quite visibly working to control it, as drinking brings out the worst in him. He is an enormous asshole, though, even when sober. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-shut-the-door-have-a-seat-spoilers-after-airing/516852/214 "2009-11-13T15:36:38Z")
Official prediction for next season: Dr. Rape gets blowed up in 'Nam, and Sterling dumps the trollop for Joan. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-shut-the-door-have-a-seat-spoilers-after-airing/516852/215 "2009-11-13T15:38:01Z")
> [@Dorothea\_Book](#): > > You have a good point **DianaG** but then I don’t think anyone is suggesting that Duck is the most morally reprehensible man on the show–only that he’s a turn-off as Peggy’s lover. If Peggy got involved with Roger I’d be just as annoyed. Ditto if she rekindled her fling with Pete. > > Don is much more sympathetic character than any of these because a vast amount of screen time, awesome writing and great acting has been expended showing us his inner heart as he wrestles with his demons. He’s deeper and more compelling than any other male character in part because it would be impossible to structure an interesting narrative around someone who was nothing but the sum total of his betrayals and deceptions.. I see where you are coming from, but Don (IMO) is not a partially sympathetic character at this point. After 3 seasons of moral cowardice, identity theft, cheating, lying and repeated attempts to abandon his family, whatever his other strengths Don is something a moral turd. A complex and conflicted turd, but still a turd. The more insight we get into Don’s character the less attractive he becomes. His character is compelling due to the involved character development but I don’t see him as “sympathetic”. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-shut-the-door-have-a-seat-spoilers-after-airing/516852/216 "2009-11-13T15:39:40Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Official prediction for next season: > > Dr. Rape gets blowed up in 'Nam, and Sterling dumps the trollop for Joan. Isn’t it unlikely that Greg (Joan’s husband) will be injured in Vietnam? Wouldn’t his unit be well behind the front lines? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-shut-the-door-have-a-seat-spoilers-after-airing/516852/217 "2009-11-13T15:47:15Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Official prediction for next season: > > Dr. Rape gets blowed up in 'Nam, and Sterling dumps the trollop for Joan. I wonder if a man in Roger’s position in 1963 would have had a prenup. Anyone know if they were common for have/have-not marriages? ---
**Author:** ![Dorothea\_Book](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dorothea\_Book](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorothea_Book)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-shut-the-door-have-a-seat-spoilers-after-airing/516852/218 "2009-11-13T15:51:25Z")
> [@astro](#): > > I see where you are coming from, but Don (IMO) is not a partially sympathetic character at this point. After 3 seasons of moral cowardice, identity theft, cheating, lying and repeated attempts to abandon his family, whatever his other strengths Don is something a moral turd. A complex and conflicted turd, but still a turd. The more insight we get into Don’s character the less attractive he becomes. His character is compelling due to the involved character development but I don’t see him as “sympathetic”. I think we can agree that Don is a complex, conflicted and compelling moral turd. Good thing neither of us is planning an affair with him 😃 Seriously, **astro** I find your defense of Duck to be really interesting and hope to get back to it later. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-shut-the-door-have-a-seat-spoilers-after-airing/516852/219 "2009-11-13T15:54:26Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Duck used to have a dog, until one day in a fit of pique he walked it down to the lobby, opened the door, and sent it out to fend for itself in the streets of Manhattan. It wasn’t just a fit of pique either. You get the impression that Duck loved the dog, but that it was a reminder of his old life as alcoholic loser Duck (and his ex-wife dumped it on him out of the blue), and he was worried that by having it around, he’d slip back into his old habits. Getting rid of the dog was his way to make a clean break. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-shut-the-door-have-a-seat-spoilers-after-airing/516852/220 "2009-11-13T16:10:12Z")
Actually, as I recall the scene (which may be incorrect), Duck went to pour himself a drink, looked down at the dog, decided he couldn’t bring himself to have a drink with the dog _looking at him like that_, put the dog on the leash, brought him down to the lobby… … giving the audience the momentary impression that he decided to leave and NOT have the drink, until he… … unleashed the dog, let it go, and went back upstairs, presumably to have his drink. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-shut-the-door-have-a-seat-spoilers-after-airing/516852.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mad-men-shut-the-door-have-a-seat-spoilers-after-airing/516852.md?page=12)